The Trinity?
Is a belief in the Trinity required for salvation? Does a person have to believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons in the Godhead, co-equal, co-eternal, etc., etc. to be saved? Can a modalist (belief in one God who reveals Himself in three different ways) be saved? Is there any way that an Arian (belief that Jesus is God’s greatest and highest creation) be saved?
Comment by Jeff J
That’s a question that I’m talking about with a friend of mine right now.Seems like this is a serious issue at hand. I’ll get back to this after I do more research about it. I know when I first was saved I believe that Jesus was only God’s son and not God . I still think I was saved during that time. Right now off the top of my head, I would say “yes” the person is still saved.
Comment by BoldLion
I do believe in Trinity. I will write more later with the scriptures why I do believe and support in Trinity. I never had heard of modalist or Arian. I got a lot to learn about other so that I can learn how to witness to other. I will be looking forward to this site.
Jesus is God, Son of God and Holy Spirit who dwell in us as He dwell in us. Three in one. Scriptures to support that will follow later.
There is a great book about Trinity is by Saint Anselm of Canterbury. The Major Works. It is one of the hardest book to read, and I haven’t finish reading Monologion. I had to put that on the side, so that I can read other books that is not too hard for me to read, but this is very interest book. He also wrote Why God Became Man (I haven’t read that one yet.)
I got to go to the doctor and do other errands. I do look forward this every time I come online.
Please continue to pray for me since I am experincing lightheaded or vertigo. I am on medication to help that out, but it is hitting me now. Also looking for another job too in my hometown.
Hungry for His Word,
BoldLion ~ ‘Guerite
Comment by Rick
Looks like I am the only one here who does not believe in “Three Persons” in One God. I Believe God reveals himself TO US In Three Administrations Rather Then “Persons” The Bible Teaches The Everlasting Eternal ONE God Manifested Himself In A Human Body We Know As The Son. All The S0pirit Of The Eternal God Was Not In That Body We Know As Jesus. The Bible Tells Us The Heaven And Heaven Of Heavens Cannot Contain The Eternal Omnipresent Spirit Of God. The Bible Teaches There Is Only ONE SPIRIT Of God. The Holy Ghost Is The ONE SPIRIT Of The ONE God. So Since THERE Is Only Spirit Whatelse Can We Conclude But That The FATHER AND HOLY GHOST Are The ONE And Same SPIRIT. If The Bible Told Us There Are “Two Spirits” The The FATHER And HOLY GHOST Would Be “Two” IN The Godhead.Since There Is Only Spirit That Then Eliminates One IN The “TRINITY”. That Therefore Leaves The FATHER And THE SON. God (The Father The Creator). The FATHER Being A Spirit Cannot Die Or Shed Blood…So He Created Himself In A Human Body To Be Seen To Teach Then To Die On The Cross For Our sins. Jesus Is God And Jesus Is The Lord. Jesus Was Both Human 0AND Divine Not A Separate Function. Jesus Was Under The Direction And Guidance Of The FATHER. Jesus (the Son) Spoke AS Human (Father if it be thy will let this cup pass from me) and he spoke as God Which he is (Before Abraham was I AM). Same Lord Same God.
Comment by Dave
Is a belief in the Trinity required for salvation? -Yes
Does a person have to believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons in the Godhead, co-equal, co-eternal, etc., etc. to be saved? -Yes
Can a modalist (belief in one God who reveals Himself in three different ways) be saved? -No, but not for this belief alone. Those that believe this, typically, have many other heretical beliefs to go along with this.
Is there any way that an Arian (belief that Jesus is God’s greatest and highest creation) be saved? -Yes, if they change their beliefs.
Modalists believe:
1. The Son is not divine, but a created being with both beginning and end.
2. The Holy Spirit is just the power of God rather than God himself.
3. God is one in number rather than one in unity.
4. God as having one personality rather than three.
5. God changes forms or modes.
6. “God” as a name rather than a designation for a class of being.
Modalism is an ancient heresy on the nature of God.
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Grandpa EC
Am I becoming a compromiser in my old age?
As time has gone on, I’ve become less and less comfortable with the idea that a person must get their doctrines straightened out before they can have a life-transforming relationship with God through Christ.
Of this I am confident: a lost person must understand something about the Lord Jesus, and something about themselves, and be willing to bring all that they know of themselves to all that they know of Him
But how much they need to know–regarding “the Trinity” or anything else–I am not at all sure.
In other words, at this point in my life I’m placing more emphasis upon the heart than on the head, in this matter of salvation.
Comment by Anonymous
Ever notice how frequently the New Testament talks about the Father & Son with no mention of the Spirit? I wonder why?
The Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ, and Christ said He would not leave us but would come to us in His Spirit, and yet He talks about His Spirit as another Helper?:
John 14
“And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.”
Jesus also referred to His Father as another person and yet said they are one in eachother. God has never been alone. There has always been fellowship and community in the Trinity. How can anyone read this next verse and not see two separate persons? Granted, we don’t fully understand how they are one:
Also John 14
“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.
Comment by Anonymous
Grandpa,
I think it’s the head first and then the heart. Salvation is by grace through faith, faith comes by hearing, and hearing (spiritual hearing/discernment) by the supernatural power of the Living Word of God. Hearing involves the head (comprehension of God’s Word) and understanding our sin, the Hell we deserve, and our way of escape through Jesus. The hearing then affects the heart to want to respond. Remember in Acts 2 how they heard Peter preach the gospel, which God used to give them His gift of faith, He enabled them to believe:
Acts 2
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
Comment by Rick
Anonymous; You are quoting a couple of my Favorite Verses (John 14 Verses 8 To 10). You know why Jesus Told Apostle Phillip “He That Hath Seen Me Hath Seen The Father”? Because The Father Is A Spirit And We Can’t See A spirit That’s Why God Robed Himself In Flesh So They Could Talk And Learn From God….
Comment by Rick
Dave; I would Respectfully Address Some Of Your Statements In Post#4. First You Said Anyone Who Does Not Believe In A “Trinity” Cannot Be Saved…Can You Give Us Scripture On This? Next; You Further Stated That If Someone Does Not Believe That There Are THREE PERSons Co-Equal Etc Cannot Be Saved. I Believe The Father Son Holy Ghost Are The Same God Revealed As Different Relationships To We Humans. “Three Persons” Is Not Ever Spoken In the Word Of God.It’s Based On The Carnal Minded Invention Of Man. Next;MODALISTS You’ll Have To Explain Unto Us What Modalists Are. I’m Not One According To Your Assertions You Posted. Next;I Asked You Several Times To Tell Us How Many Are Sitting On The Great White Throne (Rev 20 Verse 11)And While You Read That Scripture Tell Us Since There Is Supposedly TWO OTHER PERSONS In The Godhead Where Are They At Vacation? Visting? Tell Us Where Oh Where Can They Be????
Comment by Jeff H
I believe that how one views the Godhead- that is whether they are Trinitarian or Oneness- does not determine salvation. The deciding factor towards whether or not someone is saved is whether they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ. The Trinity and Oneness Theology are both ways at explaining the unexplainable. I personally, am of the Trinitarian belief- which I believe is clearly backed by Scripture, but I am not going to say that anyone who subscribes to the Oneness Theology is unsaved. Trinitarianism and Oneness Theology are both ways to describe something that is far too complex for human beings to understand. As far a salvation is concerned Jesus summed it up as “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father, but by Me”. (John 14:6)- As long as you Truly trust Jesus Christ as your Savior, theological views such as ways to describe the Trinity take a backseat.
Comment by Jeff H
As far as Arianism is concerned, I do not believe that someone could subscribe to this belief and be saved, because it totally alters who Jesus is as the Son of God.
Comment by Dave
Rick, Rick, Rick,
Where has the time gone? It seems like only the other day that we were discussing this very subject. Wait a minute; it WAS only the other day!
This is where I disagree with the GQ article on the trinity. While I don’t believe that a person has to be able to fully understand the trinity to be saved (none of us will ever be able to), a person DOES have to believe IN the trinity.
If a person denies the trinity, they are in fact denying the deity of God, Jesus Christ or of the Holy Spirit, or one or more of the three. It’s just that simple.
Now, I may have been a little quick to say that someone who does not believe in the trinity cannot be saved; of course they can, but not while holding to this belief.
As to your question of Revelation 20:11, where are the other two, I don’t know. The fact that I don’t know doesn’t mean that they aren’t there. I would have to make an assumption, and I’m not one to do much assuming.
In the past, I’ve not felt the need to put a lot of scripture on this blog, because there are plenty of others that do a fine job of it, and to be honest, most times I would probably only be posting scriptures that have already been posted. I consider myself more of a color-commentator on this board. That having been said, you have asked me many times for scriptures to back up my statements/beliefs, so here goes:
Who is our Father?
God – Isaiah 63:16
Jesus Christ – Isaiah 9:6
The Holy Spirit – Matthew 10:20
Who has all authority and power?
God – 1 Chronicles 29:11
Jesus Christ – Matthew 28:18
The Holy Spirit – Micah 3:8
Who is omnipresent?
God – Proverbs 15:3
Jesus Christ – 2 Corinthians 2:14
The Holy Spirit – Psalm 139:7
Who is omniscient?
God – 1 John 3:20
Jesus Christ – Colossians 2:2-3
The Holy Spirit – 1 Corinthians 2:10-11
Who is eternal?
God – Genesis 21:33
Jesus Christ – Micah 5:2
The Holy Spirit – Hebrews 9:14
Who gives eternal life?
God – Proverbs 19:23
Jesus Christ – John 3:36
The Holy Spirit – John 6:63
Who gives power and authority to man?
God – Psalm 68:35
Jesus Christ – Luke 9:1
The Holy Spirit – Acts 1:8
Who resurrects the dead?
God – Acts 26:8
Jesus Christ – John 11:43-44
The Holy Spirit – Romans 8:11
So there’s your scriptures. Look them over and let me know what you think.
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Professor
We must remember at all times that the “trinity” is a doctrine formed at the Council of Nicea in 325. and that it doesn’t exist anywhere in the Scripture as such. The word is nowhere mentioned. As far as I am concerned, there’s another, more significant matter related to this. The word “believe” is a wrong translation. The proper one would be “trust”. We are not supposed to believe in Jesus’ deity to be saved or that of God for that matter. We are supposed to have faith and trust God – that’s what Christianity is all about. I can support it from the Scriptures, but I’d rather we all consider it for a moment. If we start proclaiming that salvation is about believing a certain doctrine, than we might turn into Roman Catholics.
Blessings in Christ!
Comment by Ron
The trinity, I feel is something our human minds can not fully understand. I just needs to taken by faith. Jesus said himself “I and My Father are one,” John 10:30. (thoughs out there might look up scripture tying the holy spirit).
God did not ask or reqire us understand His nature, only ask us to recieve His son for salvation, John 3:16.
Some might take note, if look at cults and (so called) religions of the world the trinty is the mosts attacked.
Comment by misterbee241
Ok, I’m putting in my two cents.
The Trinity, God revealed in threes separate and distinct persons, not one person revealed three different ways (modality) and not one person revealed one way (Jesus only).
It is my belief that doctrine does not get you into Heaven, nor does it keep you out. Scripture is very plain on what must be done for salvation – believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with your mouth that he is Lord.
Scripture is very plain about the Trinity, even though it is not mentioned specifically, it can be seen, Jesus’ baptism being one. In Genesis God said let US make man in OUR image, at the Tower of Babel He said let US go down. And Elohim, one of the names God revealed to the Hebrews, is plural.
And scripture does say that God is spirit, but nowhere does it say Spirit cannot be seen. Moses (Exodus 24:10)when he was called to the mountain to get the Law saw the God of Israel sitting on a throne. “Elohim” that is, plural, is used in this passage (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H0430&Version=kjv). Moses also talked to Elohim face to face, that is, like a friend without contention. God says later no man can see His face and live – does a spirit have a face? Moses plainly saw Elohim. While we cant see Him we can see the results of His work. In this context, I take Elohim to indicate the Trinity. One God, revealed in three separate and distinct persons.
Rick – I’m a little confused with your spirit talk. Would you be good enough to supply me with scripture that supports your position so I can examine them for myself?
Thanks in advance.
Comment by Anonymous
Way back somewhere three things became very important to me:
1. Not to reject or marginalize someone whom Christ has received (even if their theology is–in my judgment–very faulty);
2. Not to comfort careless sinners (with Bible verses that might make them feel eternally secure in such a state);
3. And not to terrorize timid saints (with Bible verses that could add to their feelings of insecurity).
As time goes on, I find myself increasingly convinced that those are solid Biblical principles upon which to base my dealings with those of my acquaintance who profess to be Christians.
I am, in effect, repeating what I wrote earlier (in Post #5) “At this point in my life I’m placing more emphasis on the heart than on the head, in this matter of salvation.”
Comment by Dave
Professor,
I’ll grant you that the word trinity is nowhere in the Bible. And I do like the idea of using the word trust rather than believe. However, if a person denies the attributes of the trinity, they are, in all fact, denying the deity of God, of Jesus Christ or of the Holy Spirit. Depending, of course, on which aspect(s) they deny.
…”We are not supposed to believe in Jesus’ deity to be saved or that of God for that matter. We are supposed to have faith and trust God – that’s what Christianity is all about. I can support it from the Scriptures…”
How can anyone who has faith and trusts God, deny the trinity? Wouldn’t that be a double negative? And I would like to see the scriptures to support your statement.
To be saved we are to have faith that Jesus Christ came to this earth as fully God and fully man to die a cruel death on the cross for the payment/remission of our sins. According to your statement above, we don’t have to believe that Jesus Christ is God or, for that matter, that God is God.
That goes back to the original argument. How can anyone deny the deity of any aspect of the Godhead and claim salvation?
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Grandpa EC
Whoops, that “Anonymous” was me, Grandpa EC.
Comment by Rick
Misterbee 241; if You read my Posts you will see I have no Difficulty beleiving in Father Son Holy Ghost I Don’T believe in the Trinitarian View That the Three Are “Persons”. They are Administrations Of the ONE LORD/ONE GOD…Let’s Read a few Verses; 1JOHN 5 Verse 7; “For There are THREE That Bear Record In Heaven THE FATHER (THE Spirit) The WORD (John 1 Verse 1 Tells Us The Word Was God And Verse 14 Tells Us The Word Was Made Flesh And Dwelt Among us-Jesus THe SON).This Also Backs Up 1 Timothy 3 Verse 16 Which tells us “GOD (The Father The Only Spirit)Was Manifest In The Flesh…..”. This Confirms What Jesus Stated What Jesus Tells Us In John 10 Verse 30; “I And MY FATHER Are ONE”. God did not create another “Person” As Widely BELIEVED He Simply Made Himself A Human Body To Be Seen To Teach Then To Shed His Precious Innocent Blood At Calvary For Everyone. Without That Shedding Of Blood Noone Could Be Saved. (Hebrews 9 Verse 22).Jesus is also the Name Of The Father Son And Holy Ghost As Confirmed In 1 John 2 Verse 1 And Isaiah 9 Verse 6 And John 14 Verse 26. The Prophecy Of The ONE NAME Is Given In Zechariah 14 Verse 9. TRINITARIANS Teach That Jesus Was Already Created In Genesis 1 VERSE 26 When God Said; “Let Us Create Man In OUR Image” This However Is Not True Since Jesus Was Born Of Virgin Mary Thousands Of Years Later. Who Then Was God Talking Unto When He Said “LET US…”. His Angels? No! Let Us Read Romans 4 Verse 17 For The Answer; “…..Who Quickeneth The Dead And Called THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS Though THEY WERE.”. To Claim THE SON Was Already Created In Genesis 1 26 Is To Deny His Birth In Bethlehem.God Was Counselling With Himself In Genesis 1 26 As If Jesus Was Already There He Knows The End From The Beginning His Mind Is Far Superior To We Glorified Mudballs Of Humanity. Jesus (The Son) Is LORD And He IS The ONE And Only God.He And The Father Are Truly ONE Not One Of TWO.The Only Difference Is The Son Is The Created Flesh Of God And The FATHER Is The Eternal Omnipresent One God Who Created Himself In Flesh. Another Verse To Consider To Prove Jesus/Father/Holy Ghost Are The Same; John 16 Verse 15 “Jesus Said; ALL THINGS That The FATHER Hath Are MINE…..” In The Old Testament God (The Father) Made This Statement; “I AM The LORD That Is My Name And My GLORY Will I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER……”.God Never Lies Or Mis-Leads Only The Devil Does. Since God Tells Us He Will Not Share His Glory With Another Then Jesus Tells Us In John “All Things That The Father HATH ARE Mine” If Then I submit They Are One And The Same HOW Could They Possibly Be One Of TWO PERSONS?????? John 8 Verse 58 Jesus states. “Before ABRAHAM WAS I AM…..” Only the Great “I AM” Could Make That Statement. If Jesus Was #2 Person He Could’nt Declare That…There Is Only ONE!!! Lord Bless You
Comment by Rick
Dave; Thanks for answering the QUESTION I Posed in Rev 20 11. The other “TWO” Simply Don’T Exist Bro. If The THREE Were Co-Equal The THree Would ALL Be on The Throne. Jesus made this statement in John 8 Verse 24; “….That Ye shall die in your sins if You believe not I AM HE.” Only THe Creator Could say he is I AM (read Exodus 3 Verse 14 And Isaiah 52 Verse 6).If Jesus THE SON was #2 in a “TRINITY” He could not say this…..Glory To God For The TRUTH.
Comment by Rick
To Everyone….The TRINITY Doctrine was never taught by Jesus or His Apostles. THE Official Beginning started at The Council of Nicea in 325AD. Present were the Gnostics of Alexandria Egypt The Pagan Intellegencia of Their Day. These Folks like all Pagans worshipped The Sun God Trinity. Isis Horus And Seb were The Three Isis was the Female in this Trinity. The “Fathers” of The Newly Formed Catholic Church BLindly Accepted The Gnostic View That “Father Son Holy Ghost” WAs Another TRINITY so these Fools DEcided To SaY “YEAH And Amen” And is where and how it all Started….It May Interest Everyone To Know The Gnostics Are Responsible For “The DA VINCI CODE” Also TheY Wrote Jesus And Mary Magdalene Were Married With Kids. Also The “LOST GOSPEL OF JUDAS” Is More Of Gnostic blasphemy…..
Comment by Jeff H
The KJV states the Trinity in 1 John 5:7 “For there are three that testify in heaven: The Father, The Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.” The Trinity does not mean three physical separate deities as Rick is suggesting. That would make Christianity a polytheistic religion. Three beings are so close that they become one. St. Patrick used the best possible way to explain the Trinity in human terms: upon examining a 3-leaved clover, are there tree separate leaves or one leaf comprised of three? Again, the Trinity is something that cannot be explained in human terms, but the Scriptures are clear on this issue.
Matthew 28: 19 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. Also, if the Trinity is a false teaching, then who forsook Jesus on the Cross? Who did Jesus pray to during the Lord’s Prayer. Rick has suggested that when Jesus mentions the Father, He is speaking about the spiritual side of Him. If this is true, why did He pray, “Our Father who art in HEAVEN.” The Bible supports the doctrine of the Trinity, it was not something that was just made up at Nicea.
Comment by Anonymous
Rick,
How many are on the throne?
“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” Rev 3:21
Comment by Anonymous
Rev 3:21 is another one of the many, many New Testament verses that mentions the Father and the Son, but excludeds the Spirit. Not sure why this occurs so often, but believe it is telling us something.
Comment by Jeff J
Jeff H, that’s how I try to help folk understand the Trinity for years also. Thanks
Comment by Anonymous
Trinity? How about the seven Spirits of God?
Revelation 1:4
John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
Revelation 3:1
“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Revelation 4:5
And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Revelation 5:6
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Comment by Dan
Hi Everyone,
The Trinity is a primary and not a secondary essential principle of Faith. This truth is based upon God’s Written Word…
Believing that original Scripture, especially the Gospel, is infallible, absolute truth, and the final authority alone is essential to a person’s salvation.
Believing in the full deity of Jesus is essential to salvation.
Believing in God the Father, God the Son, and God Holy Spirit, three person’s in one substance is essential to salvation.
Believing in the resurrection of Jesus is essential to salvation.
————————–
TRINITY as the angels sing is HOLY HOLY HOLY (Isa 6:3)
If there is a Son there must somehow be also a Father…”Do you take offense at this?”( John 6:61).
And Jesus said… “Why do you call me good, no one but my Father is good? (Mark 10:18). And Jesus said, no one knows the time or the hour but the Father (Mark 13:32).
But Jesus also says… that He and the Father are One (John 10:30).
And apostle John said…
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. And we pray in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (1John 5:20 ).
Comment by Dan
Think about it…
To be saved a person must die to self for Christ (Romans 7:1-6). When a person surrenders their life to the Son it is important to know who and what you are dying for. Once enlightened, if a person worships a different Jesus other than the one true God Man/Son the Christ, according to the Gospel message, they are rejecting the personhood of God the Father and will not receive the gift of eternal life (Hebrew 6:4-6). It is clear… anyone who professes a different Gospel message was never saved in the first place.
We must know and understand who and what the Son of God is and it is through Scripture that we know.
You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the FATHER in spirit and truth, for the FATHER is seeking such people to worship him. (John 4:22-23).
John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
————————————-
GOD IS WHO ?
The name Father personhood appears hundreds of times in Scripture.
The name Son personhood appears hundreds of times in Scripture.
The name Holy Spirit personhood appears 92 times in Scripture.
In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit we are commanded to worship and obey God.
Not to obey Jesus is an offense to the Father, not to believe in the Holy Spirit is Blasphemy…the unpardonable sin. A one way ticket to hell!!!
This means if a person denounces or degrades the personhood and testimony of the Holy Spirit Who speaks absolute truth about the Son and Father… they are self condemned. There is no excuse.
Yes, Jesus is God but He is not the personhood of the Holy Spirit . He is the Son, God Man, Creator, Mediator, the Great I Am, Savior, King, Most High Priest, Prophet, and a friend, and much much more. He is all and in all.
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell…(Col 1:19 ).
But because the name and distinct personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is who and what God is we must recognize and glorify HIM as our One true triune God and worship and praise each person of the One Godhead. This triune relationship in one substance Being, is irrevocable.
God bless.
Comment by Dan
Dear Professor, Post 13
What is you Creed…meaning your Confession of Faith? And is it absolute truth?
Thanks for responding.
God bless.
Comment by Grandpa EC
How accurately must someone understand the mystery of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in order to be saved?
The sermons by Peter and Paul to not-yet-Christians in the book of Acts give us some good pointers as to what they considered the minimum of information needed for sinners to embrace Christ savingly.
They mention God and Christ repeatedly, the Holy Spirit occasionally. Conspicuous by their absence are some of the terms that have become sacred to theologians.
Their heaviest accent in those sermons was on the present position of authority which God the Father gave to Jesus of Nazareth after raising Him from the dead.
Which has helped–along with many other Scriptures–to convince me that anyone who suggests to non-Christians that they can receive Christ’s salvation while refusing to submit their life to His authority is not preaching the same gospel that Peter and Paul preached.
This reminds me of a quotation of Spurgeon which I have copied somewhere in one of my old Bibles. Addressing pastors, he said something like this, “If someone tells you that they clearly understand God’s will but have no intention of doing it, it is your duty to tell them that they are not saved.”
And that reminds me of what Peter said to Simon the sorcerer (who had become a baptized believer), “You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God…” Acts 8:21
Comment by Rick
Anoyomous; The Seven Spirits you mention in Revelation Are The Following; Spirit of Wisdom…Spirit Of Understanding…Spirit Of Counsel…Spirit Of Might…Spirit Of Knowledge.. Spirit Of Fear Of The Lord. (Please Read Isaiah 11 Verse2)……
Comment by Dave
Grandpa,
A person does not need to understand the mystery of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in order to be saved. None of us will ever be able to claim that we understand, until possibly that great day when we meet them. A person does, however, need to believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. By denying any aspect of the trinity, a person is in fact denying the deity of one or more of the Godhead. How can anyone say that the Holy Spirit is not God and still claim salvation? Wouldn’t that be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? The only unforgivable sin? Isn’t it God’s will that we honor each aspect of the Godhead? Father, Son and holy Spirit.
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Anonymous
That’s only six from verse two, and they’re only describing the One Spirit mentioned in verse 1:
Isaiah 11
1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
Comment by Dan
Hi Grandpa EC,
I appreciate your comments. You are making some good points that can not be ignored. In gentleness and respect I leave you with my testimony.
To me, the gift of faith for my salvation isn’t about being perfect in nature or knowledge or even attempting to be meritoriously worthy. It simply is receiving the gift and accepting Jesus as my personal Savior who will change me from old to new.
But I need to know enough about Him and to cooperate from day one as He begins to change me gradually from old to new self.
I do not understand how he does it and I do not understand the nuts and bolts of His Deity or the Trinity. No one can comprehend it. However, we just know Christ is the Way, through the Spirit who compels and leads us unto all understanding so that I know the same Jesus you do according to Scripture. But we want to know the same person His Family knows.
Without this trust in the Spirit and Word, we all will end up worshipping a different Jesus thinking it is ok to make Him whatever we want Him to be. It is not for us to decide.
When I went through conversion (regenerated), it was more emotional than intellectual. But I can tell you this, I knew from the Gospel message that there is a Father, Son, and Spirit that saved me by grace.
Does a person need a Seminary degree to be saved? No, of course not but they do need need to hear, read, listen to the Word so that they know they are becoming a true Christian rather than a cult member of a different religion or belief system of doctrines like the leadership of the Oneness Apostolic church commands. All their salvation doctrines and requirements are not biblical thus they are not in the true visible Church of Christ. RCC, JW’s, LDS, Adventist’s, etc… are deceptions of the truth. They are not saved.
We must be educated enough (at least as small as a mustard seed), so that we can say we tested our feelings against enough basic Scripture (instead of just a few verses), rather than not and instead trust our feelings that our intuition is truth.
Charles Spurgeon also said that the Gospel is free but it will cost you your life. Your old self. He also says to Christain’s, babe’s or mature, who claim and boast they are not suffering while going through the change, …”Satan doesn’t kick a dead horse.”
Said faith is not a saving living faith. That isn’t the way the Spirit completes a good work of salvation in and through us. It is because of our salvation that we love and feel it to be a privilege to trust, obey, and serve the Lord. But in order to do so there has to be absolute truth or our lives are misguided and meaningless.
Either God’s name is Jesus
or the Trinity is true or
Jesus was a just a good man or angel.
But he must be somebody and not just an “unknown God” or a ” I don’t know who you are but I believe in you.” .
For 2000 yrs the Trinity creed has weathered the battles and spiritual war and remains steadfast for mainline Christendom. We speak the same language of beliefs concerning Jesus.
When we pray we must know who it is we are talking to. From day one of our regeneration and conversion we must want to know so that we may be confident in who and what our Lord and Savior is.
It is because of fear that a true Christian takes a stand for God in an evil world that hates Him and his followers. A reverent fear of AWE!
Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all those who practice it have a good understanding. His praise endures forever!
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 15:33 The fear of the LORD is instruction in wisdom, and humility comes before honor.
——
Christians begin with reverent fear…and get to know who and what Jesus is. The demons know Jesus and shudder!
God for His good pleasure and purposes created two places in the universe… one place for those who reverently fear Him and the second place for those who irreverantly or in a lukewarm way do not fear Him. Sheep vrs goats.
Just my thoughts.
God bless.
YBIC
Dan
Comment by Grandpa EC
My friend and brother Dave,
Sometimes disagreement is merely a matter of one person using words differently from how another person uses them —
I think of “denying” a Biblical truth quite differently from how I view “not believing” it.
To me, “denial” suggests overt rejection, possibly even stubborn rejection, of adequately proven truth.
On the other hand, I think of “not believing” a Biblical truth as possibly being caused by a lack of information, or perhaps by wrong teaching.
Not all lost sheep have their heads on straight theologically when the good Shepherd finds them!
How very sad if I, a properly-taught-from-my-youth sheep, won’t welcome those odd ones into the flock until their heads get straightened around so that they look like me!
I’m for accepting people as “found” sheep when their lips acknowledge Jesus as their Shepherd, and their lives show that they really want to follow Him.
I would certainly be reluctant to baptize someone who said they believed that the Holy Spirit was merely a created being.
I would also be reluctant to put their expression of doubt into the same category with the Jews’ statement that the Spirit in Christ was demonic. As you will recall, it was that statement that drew Christ’s warning about the unforgivable sin.
Comment by Rick
To All; I Believe This Discussion Is Going Nowhere. Everybody Has Their Viewpoint And So Be It. I’Ve Said All I’m Gonna Say For Now. Unless God Gives A Revelation On His Scriptures A Person Will Never Understand. Jesus Went Through A Lot Of Persecution And Dis-Belief In His Time. Maybe The Next Thread Posted Next Week Will Be More Agreeable For All Of Us To Discuss.Please Don’t Judge Others Or Think Your All-Knowing In Your Beleifs Unless You Can Prove It With all Related Scriptures. Read The 9 Fruits Of The Spirit To Make Certain We All Alighn Ourselves With What The Lord Expects From Us. Lord Bless Everyone…..
Comment by Anonymous
Rick,
You Believe This Discussion Is Going Nowhere. Everybody Has Their Viewpoint And So Do You. You’ve Said All You’re Gonna Say For Now. Unless God Gives You A Revelation On His Scriptures You Will Never Understand. Jesus Went Through A Lot Of Persecution And Dis-Belief In His Time. Maybe The Next Thread Posted Next Week Will Be More Agreeable For You To Discuss.Please Don’t Judge Others Or Think You’re All-Knowing In Your Beliefs Unless You Can Prove It With All Related Scriptures. Read The Whole Bible To Make Certain You Align Yourself With What The Lord Expects From You. Lord Bless You, Rick…
p.s. – why capitalize every word? just curious.
Comment by Rick
Anonymous; Thanks for your input.The ONENESS Of God is revealed in his scriptures. I Realize unless God gives The revelation To Someone it will Remain A Mystery And not acceptable that’s why I Decided to quit trying to show everyone the Facts that Thousands upon Thousand others already Know.We Will Wait Until A Subject Arises Not As Hard To Comprehend. Lastly Jesus filled me with The Holy Ghost 20 Years ago this month.I know the Bible In And out Am a Minister/Preahcher/Bible Teacher In the U.S. And The Philippines and Canada…Lord Bless you!!
Comment by Anonymous
Rick,
Where is the Spirit of God in your pride and boasting?:
1. You will wait to discuss a subject “not as hard to comprehend”. I guess in your pride you see yourself as more wise than the rest of us, however God says:
“Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.” Prov 16:18
2. You are filled with the Holy Ghost 20 Years
3. You know the Bible “In And out”
4. You are a Minister/Preacher/Bible Teacher in 3 countries
“You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.” James 2:19
Comment by Ron
Anonymous,
Amen
Comment by Rick
…I never stated I was “wiser” then anyone else. You told me I needed to Read and Learn and understand The Scriptures and I responded to what you said..I also stated I would respond unto future Subjects other then the “Trinity” since I can not Get any agreement and it is a waste of Time discussing it any further….
Comment by Rick
Romans 1 Verse 22 “Professing themselves to be Wise they Became Fools”
Comment by Dave
Rick,
I realize that this is a waste of time to you, but before you move on to other subjects, would you please respond to my post #12, since you did ask me to quote scripture, and I put quite some time into it. And I did respond to the question you asked me.
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Dave
One more thing Rick,
“…that’s why I Decided to quit trying to show everyone the Facts that Thousands upon Thousand others already Know.”
Just because thousands and thousands believe something, Does that make it so? I would argue that millions and millions believe just the opposite. Does that make it more so?
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Anonymous
Rick,
“But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.” Matthew 5:22
Comment by BoldLion
Not wanting to argue with the scriptures. To tell you the truth, when I got saved as a very young age(with learning disablities due to my deafness by birth) I didn’t know anything about Trinity to be saved. All I knew that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died for our sin on the Cross, He was buried, and He rose again on the third day. I confess Him to be my Personal Lord and Savior. As I gotten older with conversion that is regenerated, I became hungry for His Word. Yes, I do believe that He is God, FATHER, HOLY SPIRIT, and all in one.
I didn’t list the scriptures as I was going to. Some of you all have beat me to that already.
I do remember about Genesis when it talk about
“Let Us make man in Our own image, after our likeness.” Now, let us remember back at your age when you were a kid in Sunday School. Did they tell you that or did they said God make man instead of “Let Us make man in Our own image.” As I got older I read this, and The word “US” and “OUR” did help me to realize it is not just God alone, it is God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit together. Three in one as I see it.
Look in John 8:58 for “I AM” This is HUGE statment, and He is LORD and GOD.
What more can I say?
Hungry for Him alone,
BoldLion~’Guerite
Comment by Grandpa EC
Esteemed friend, Anonymous (the Anonymous who posted #24):
(These thoughts are about the Trinity, but not –and I apologize to the Moderator — about the minumum, or even the optimum, of knowledge and faith regarding the Trinity necessary for salvation.)
I am really, REALLY edified by your statement, “…Many, many verses mention Father and Son, but exclude the Spirit. Not sure why this occurs so often, but believe it is telling us something.”
Perhaps the following thoughts will whet your appetite for further study on the subject.
As you mentioned, Revelation speaks of “the seven Spirits of God” repeatedly.
Perhaps you noticed, too, that the Spirit is spoken of–in the singular–seven times in Chapters 2 and 3.
But in no instance is worship directed to Him: to the “Lord God Almighty” on the throne in 4:8-11, and to the Lamb in the midst of the throne in 5:8-12 (and to the One on the throne and to the Lamb in 5:13-14)–but we never see the Spirit or the seven Spirits of God being worshipped.
To that, I add this fascinating observation: I have yet to find a single instance in Scripture in which anyone addressed the Holy Spirit; either in worship or in supplication.
He produces worship of the Father and Son, but is not worshipped.
He produces prayer but is not addressed in prayer.
He speaks again and again but is not spoken to. How about that for a mystery!!!?!!!
I can’t fully explain the mystery, but maybe I can shine some light on it—
My present view (and I have a substantial number of Scriptures to support this view) is:
God the Father is the ultimate source, the Son the intermediate source, and the Spirit the immediate source of all that is happening in my life and in yours —
–It is of the Spirit that Peter speaks, “..we are partakers of the divine nature.”
–Christians “worship God in (or by) the Spirit.” —We “pray in, or by, the Holy Spirit.” (It is noteworthy that when Paul desired for the Ephesians Christians “to be strengthened with might by God’s Spirit in the inner man” he did not address the Holy Spirit, but informed them, “For this cause I bow my knees to the Father…that He would grant you…”)
–It is in, or by, the Spirit that we testify, “Jesus is Lord!” “You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit is come…and shall be witnesses unto Me…”
–We “love in the Spirit,” we “live in the Spirit,” we “walk in the Spirit.”
–We don’t feel Him, and we don’t control Him, and we don’t understand Him, but “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes us free from the law of sin and death!”
Isn’t it just like God to have something going on inside of us that is beyond us!
What are the limits? I don’t know that, either.
But we do know that God is “able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us.”
Comment by Anonymous
Grandpa EC,
Thanks a lot for taking the time to share all that. Much there to ponder as we search the Word and as the Spirit illumines our hearts and minds in the process.
Interesting observations about how we pray & worship in the Spirit, but do not pray to or worship the Spirit Himself. We love, live, and walk in the Spirit yet we’re hardly aware of His presence, except for the good works that we see Him producing in and through us. Yet we don’t address Him directly in thanks, worship, or praise, which is a mystery, and then God rewards us for the works we have done through the Spirit’s power in us!
I think it’s also interesting the way the Spirit was with the Father, then sent “upon” Jesus at His baptism, and then sent to indwell believers with His eternal Life, through the preaching of the Word at Pentecost, but not until all of their sins had been paid for by Jesus.
Your idea about ultimate, intermediate, and immediate sources is also interesting to think about. Thanks again.
May He keep us all filled and overflowing with His Spirit so that:
“they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us,”
John 17:21
Comment by Anonymous
“they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us,”
John 17:21
“Us” refers to Father & Son, more than one person, just as in the verses already noted from Genesis:
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Comment by Grandpa EC
Anon,
Two other precious thoughts regarding this treasure we have in earthen vessels:–
–1. The Holy Spirit can be “grieved.” (Ephesians 4) He always seeks the glory of Christ, and I believe He is very sensitive to anything that detracts from the glory due to Him. Apparently “corrupt conversation” (speech by Christians that does not “minister grace to the hearers”) causes particular grief to Him. Such conversation certainly detracts from Christ’s glory.
(Note: Just as Jesus said of the Spirit, “He shall glorify Me,” Jesus said to His Father, “Glorify Thy Son that the Son also my glorify Thee.” I think the Lord Jesus, in His present glorified position at God’s right hand, is grieved when anything detracts from the glory due to His Father. I certainly don’t believe He is pleased when treated as though He alone is to be worshipped, banishing His Father to virtual irrelevance.)
And, behold, how the Father and Son defend the honor of the Spirit: Jesus is recorded both in Matthew and in Luke as declaring that there can be forgiveness for having spoken against Himself or the Father, but for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit there would not be forgiveness.
–2. The Holy Spirit “groans” sometimes as, from within our hearts, He presents our needs to the Father. (Romans
I suspect it hurt Him more than it hurt Paul when He besought the Father NOT to grant Paul’s three earnest pleas for deliverance from the thorn in the flesh. He knows that the Father’s purpose is Christlikeness, not comfort. But it’s no fun to cancel out the prayer of a beloved saint who can’t see any point in further suffering.
Comment by Grandpa EC
Anon,
I’m sure I must be responsible for the smiley face, but I can’t for the life of me explain it! It said “Romans 8″ a moment before I clicked “Say it.”
Comment by Dave
Grandpa,
I found out the hard way, if you type an 8 with ) you get 8).
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Dave
of course when I types a . it messed the whole thing up! 8 with ) gets you a
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Jeff J
All, this is a good subject to talk about and may we all do this in Christian love. God will hear our prayers for one another and if anyone does understand the trinty, let him/her pray to god for wisdom. God bless *)
Comment by Jeff J
Comment by misterbee241
Anon said:
“Interesting observations about how we pray & worship in the Spirit, but do not pray to or worship the Spirit Himself. We love, live, and walk in the Spirit yet we’re hardly aware of His presence, except for the good works that we see Him producing in and through us.”
Good point Anon. The Comfortor is the most misunderstood member of the Trinity. When was the last time you heard a good sermon on the Holy Spirit?
And I’d like to reinforce Granpa EC’s point about worshipping the HS. He has a function, and that is to take our prayers to the Throne. He communicates with our spirit and through Him our spirit communicates with God. And how many times have I stood in front of a class to bring a lesson or a sermon, and acknowledge I have nothing, and the HS gives me not only scripture but words too. Jesus said the Comforter would not let His disciples forget the important things. As I see it, we pray TO God the Father, in the name of Jesus the Son, through the Holy Spirit.
Comment by Grandpa EC
Dave,
look. Got any other suggestions? 
8) 
8) 
My computer doesn’t seem to understand me. I’m telling it to make a smiley face but it’s just giving me that
Comment by misterbee241
First, let me say I do believe in the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. I do not accept nor do I believe nor do I teach that Jesus is a created being created at the time of man’s creation as Rick is saying.
Jesus said Himself that before Abraham was, I AM. Jesus has always been, is, and always will be.
And Rick – 1st John 2:1 does not say what you make it out to be.
Read it again:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=2&verse=1&version=kjv#1
John is talking about our advocate, or defense attorney, Jesus who pleads our case before the Father. That’s what an advocate does.
Comment by Grandpa EC
Dave,
What a fun way to begin a Monday morning! There were no smiley faces on Post #57 until I pushed the “Say it” button! (There were only six “8)”s).
Comment by Jeff J
I agree with misterbee241 100% and I think that most of us here do also. Jesus is not a created being but God himself.I to pray to the Father by the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus. This is totally biblcal and taught in the bible.
Comment by Grandpa EC
Misterbee241,
Thanks for the good honey.
Your last sentence in Post #56 is what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2, “Through Him (the Son) we all (Jews and non-Jews) have access in one Spurit to the Father.”
Comment by Dave
:p
Comment by Dave
Sorry, just messin’ around. I was told that :p made a smiley sticking his tongue out.
Comment by Jeff J
Dave, that would be
the number 8 then )
Comment by Grandpa EC
About prayer: yes, most New Testament prayers were addressed to the Father.
But it is okay, also, to address the Son. Paul wrote to Timothy, “I thank Christ Jesus my Lord who has enabled me..” And to the Corinthian he wrote, “To all who in every place call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours.”
And the Lamb is addressed in Revelation 5.
As has been said in other posts, and as Paul wrote in Ephesians 2, “Through Him (Jesus) we all (Jews and non-Jews) have access in one Spirit to the Father.”
With joy let us draw water from the wells of salvation!
Comment by Dave
Grandpa,
I got this from WordPress. I hope this works. If it does, enjoy!
: with ) gets
: with D gets
: with ( gets
:with o gets
8 with O gets
: with ? gets 8?
8 with ) gets
: with x gets
: with p gets :p
: with l gets
; with ) gets
: with l o l : gets
: with o o p s : gets
: with c r y : gets
: with r o l l : gets
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Dave
: with ? gets
Comment by Dave
Comment by misterbee241
Initially on this forum, I stated that belief or non belief in doctrine will not get you into or keep you out of Heaven.
I have to clarify this. Belief in the Trinity is not just about 3 in 1, it’s about belief in the deity of God the Father, God the Son, Jesus, and God the Holy Ghost. Not accepting the Trinity in effect denies the divinity of Jesus, without whom we could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven therefore not accepting the Trinity is also not accepting Christ as savior. You cant accept one without the other.
Comment by Dave
Halleluiah and Amen!
Comment by Grandpa EC
Dave,
I’m doing good if I can remember how to make one smiley face. I’m going to need this one most often– : o o p s :
Comment by Dave
Sorry Grandpa,
I forgot to mention, no spaces.
Comment by Grandpa EC
Dave,
What did I do wrong? : c r y :
Comment by Grandpa EC
Dave, and the whole wide world:
Comment by Dave
Yippee! You got it!
Comment by Grandpa EC
With that elusive skill mastered—
There is a matter of considerable concern to me regarding “the Trinity” issue.
But first, before I state that concern, let it be understood by all my fellow-bloggers, that I am fully convinced, and wholeheartedly committed, to the deity of God’s Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
I worship Him as God’s divine Son, I address some of my prayers and songs to Him. I am convinced that the Holy Spirit has come to me from the Father through the Son, and works in my life under the Lordship of the Son.
With that understood, here’s my concern —
Such expressions as “Jesus is God Himself” make me uncomfortable.
I feel that way because I don’t believe Jesus or any of the apostles would have spoken of His deity in those terms.
Yes, theologically the Trinity can be expressed as “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.” But Biblically–that is, following the precedent set by Jesus and the New Testament writers–we do better to speak of “God the Father, the Son of God, and the Spirit of God,” for it is well documented that first century leaders used those all three of those expressions.
Paul’s statement in I Corinthians 8:6 tells me that he and his fellow-apostles considered it less confusing to Christians and non-Christians for the word “God” to be (usually) reserved for the Father, and the word “Lord” to (usually) apply to Christ.
To which I say, “Amen.” For I am continually reminded of the confusion that the new terminology often produces, particularly to people with a monotheistic background.
Comment by Dave
0:)
Comment by BoldLion
Just checking this out!
Comment by BoldLion
I just been reading Desiring God Blog online and thought that you might like to read this link:
http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/869_trinity_101/
It is a good blog about Trinity! I will be looking forward to read the next one when that comes!
Hungry for His Word,
BoldLion ~ ‘Guerite
Comment by Dave
Rick,
Just so I’m sure. Are you going to respond to my post containing scripture? You know, the one you kept asking me for. If not, that’s ok, I’m just wondering.
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Rick
Dave; I decided to Not answer or post any more Rebuttals on this subject. Not because I Cannot Rather it is useless to keep arguing. There maybe some people reading all this and possibly cause them to believe all we Christians do is argue not Good at all.Please let us just Move on O.K.??? Peace!!….
Comment by Dave
Comment by Dan
Hi Rick,
I just wanted you to examine something in Scripture. I don’t expect you to respond. I hope you will look this over and discuss it with your church elders. The first part of this you know all about but my point is at the end. Thank you.
Many take Son to be exclusively a title for being a Mediator. Sabellians and “oneness” sects hold to this position. They deny that God exists eternally as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They make these names instead to be official titles under which the one and same divine person has made Himself known to us.
The oneness sect believe that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit doesn’t describe anything of the essential being of God. That they merely describe certain relations into which He enters with His creatures.
However, the oneness Apostolic church leaders must at some point designate in when Christ became the Son of God. What verses they do cite as proof contradict with other verses.
The evidence in Scripture is that Christ’s Sonship is eternal. ” Begotten” denotes biblically “eternal preexistence” of the Son. Begotten can not denote anything but generation of Christ’s Sonship making it eternal having in it no idea of inferiority of essence or time.
When we examine the verses below we can determine when the Son was begotten;
John 1:14, And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Scripture tells us according to these two verses:
First Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. As the only begotten of the Father He has a peculiar glory. Second, this glory He had before the world was (v-17:5). Third, He could only possess this glory in His Divine nature, for His human nature did not exist at that time. (“before the world began” v-17:5) Fourth, He is the only begotten Son of God as God, and we can establish the conclusion that He is the eternal Son of the Father, and that is by preexistence called eternal generation.
Comment by Dan
Continued for Rick…
Christ did not become the Son of God by His birth in Bethlehem as oneness suggest in (Luke 1:35). Matthew 1:23 demonstrates the supernatural birth, incarnate. Christ did not become God because of His virgin birth. Christ could only be called God at birth because He was already the Son of God.
Matthew 1:23, “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
We read that that the Son was with God in the Beginning.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The Word became flesh and He was in the beginning with God.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
The word sent testifies that the Sonship of Christ precedes the act of sending. The words can not mean that God sent someone who had no existence as His Son prior to the act of sending. Even God can not give what does not exist.
Christ’s parable states the eternal Sonship as well.
Mark 12:6 He had still one other, a beloved son. Finally he sent him to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
Christ did not become the Son of God at His baptism according to the following verses…
Matthew 17:4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
Matthew 17:5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”
Matthew 3:17 is not supported by the above verses which use the same words thus they cancel each other out as being the time when the Son became God’s Son.
Christ did not become the Son of God at His resurrection by manifestation. Acts 13:33 is not supported by Romans 1:4 which says that Christ was then “declared” the Son of God, not manifested.
Christ did not become the Son of God by His exaltation.
He was appointed heir because He was the Son of God. He was not appointed the Son of God because He was made heir (Phi 2:7-11).
——————————-
Rick, the point is, there are too many verses in Scripture that do not support that the Son of God existed after the world began. In all fairness to the Word of God we must teach and preach the whole of Scripture concerning who and what the Son of God is.
Respectfully,
Dan
Comment by Rick
Dan; All Due Respect…Let Us Please Move On….Bless You
Comment by Dave
Dan,
I love movies.
One of my favorites is the Paul Newman classic “Cool Hand Luke”. This movie has, in my opinion, one of the best lines ever spoken on the silver screen. For those of you that don’t know this movie, Paul Newman is in prison. He keeps escaping and just all around giving the warden and guards a hard time. There’s one scene where he’s escaped and caught. The warden brings him back all shackled and throws him down in front of all the other prisoners and says, in a really deep old-south accent, “What we’ve got here, is a failure to communicate. Some men you just can’t reach. Which is the way he wants it, well, he gets it.”
This is I think, the mentality of Rick. He has been given an abundance of scripture to refute his false beliefs. He just doesn’t want to hear it. So, unfortunately, when the time comes, he’ll find out the truth. I just hope and pray that it happens, it’s not too late.
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Dave
And Dan, thanks. I really appreciate your love for the word of God.
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Dave
Here’s another quote that seems kind of fitting.
“You gonna get used to wearin’ them chains afer a while, Luke. Don’t you never stop listenin’ to them clinking. ‘Cause they gonna remind you of what I been saying. For your own good.”
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Dan
Hi brother Dave,
Thanks for the kind words and script lines. Are you old enough to remember Clint Eastwood? “Go ahead…make my day.”
I think of this line in an apologetic way-that is, it is important to be prepared to defend personally, and in Word, our precious Lord and Savior especially when the false teachers surface.
As you well know religious cult members are trained to prey on mainline Christians determined to break them away from the fold. The “baby” Christians or thee older more passive one’s that just do not spend time learning and memorizing the Bible can be easily overcome by them. This concerns me gravely.
The last days are here my friend for all the signs of false teaching and evil we have been warned about by Christ continue to confront us more and more. Never before in human history has the flood of false teaching and new cults been so noticable and active here and now in our generation.
Dave, it is paramont that well meaning Christian’s stop being so passive, tolerant, and ignorant in their talk and walk with the Lord. To the point they really do not even know who the Lord is or the Father,and Holy Spirit let alone able to defend their Faith. Believing that all they really need to know is that Jesus is their Savior and that their is no need to study their Bible or understand Theology or Christiology. These are the very Christians who the cults love to prey on and devour. It is unfortunate indeed.
I pray that more Christians would be prepared in knowledge and on the alert in committment so that they would not hesitate to take a stand for God’s truth.
But a Christian can not if they really are not sure who they are defending and why.
That is why Christ said, “Who do you say I am?” Meaning that we are to know Him personally and intimately, and nothing less. If we do not then He is not the most important person in our life.
Got Questions and All About God on the worldwide web are two of the best help ministries a person can learn from concerning who and what Jesus is, to gain proof about His resurrection, and to gain proof that the Bible is infallible. They are sites that people can trust when it comes to these primary essential Christian principles. These principles are non-negotiable and can not be compromised. We must be like minded against the enemy.
Let’s pray that people would take more interest in knowing their Bible, in knowing who the enemy is, and in knowing how to make the enemies day all in the Name and glory of Jesus Christ. Amen?
It isn’t an easy job but the Lord calls us into action to keep in the good fight all the way to the finish line. We will persevere and overcome.
Be encouraged in defending our Lord and let’s continue to encourage others to do the same.
Encouragement is like cold water to a thirsty soul.
God bless.
YBIC
Dan
p.s. always leave the false teachers and cult members with a list of Scriptural verses in writing that will clearly break down their beliefs. The Word is the seed to repentance or self condemned damnation.
Comment by Jeff J
I feel Rick does fall in this area
we will keep praying for him and maybe only God himself can reach Rick. Good day 
Comment by Dave
Ain’t smileys fun!
Comment by Grandpa EC
“Now our Lord, Jesus Christ Himself, and God–even our Father who has loved us and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace–comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.” (II Thessalonians 2:16-17)
…. 
That’s probably my #2 favorite benediction, and I really truly do want it for each of you.
Comment by Dave
Grandpa,
I ran across this and thought you might like it.
http://cheatpenguinplanet.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/picture-1.png
God Bless. Dave
Comment by Grandpa EC
Dave,
Thanks a whole big bunch. I’ll keep that handy for future use.
Comment by Rick
Jeff; I’m Sorry That You Feel I Am Part Of Some Weird Cult. I Said Let’s Move On Since Noone Wants To Believe Me On The Trinity And So Be It. One Of The Largest Denominations Who Teaches And Believes As I Do Is UNITED PENTECOSTAL CHURCH. Go See If You Debate One Of Their Pastors Or Evangelists That Your Thinking IS Correct On The Trinity And There’s Is Wrong. UPC Churches Are All Across America…..
Comment by Dave
So, the number of churches makes a belief right? If that were the case, then I’d say that the Roman Catholic Church has us all beat hands down!
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Rick
No Dave; The Bible teaches only the “Few” not the Majority will be saved. I ws simply stating the UPC churches the most recognized Teach the same Oneness Doctrine I and many more churches all over the world teach from the Bible. Send me your address and I will mail you the complete tracts which fully explain the Oneness Belief VS TRinity Belief.Let me know lord Bless you….
Comment by Dave
Rick,
Thanks, but no thanks. I have done quite a bit of studying on your religion lately and I’ve probably already read the tracts you would send. And the ones I did read, seemed quite heretical.
My church is in a year long study of the book of Luke. Interestingly, when I sat down this morning and read the bulletin, I noticed that the lesson today is from Luke 12:1-12.
Rick, I would strongly recommend that you read this. Please pay special attention to verse 10. Denying the trinity is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Dave
Thanks, but no thanks. I have done quite a bit of studying on your religion lately and I’ve probably already read the tracts you would send. And the ones I did read, seemed quite heretical.
My church is in a year long study of the book of Luke. Interestingly, when I sat down this morning and read the bulletin, I noticed that the lesson today is from Luke 12:1-12.
Rick, I would strongly recommend that you read this. Please pay special attention to verse 10. Denying the trinity is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Rick
Dave;
I Don’t Believe That Verse 10 Pertains to me Just because I know and Believe there are not THREE PERSONS in ONE GOD. I Firmly Believe The FATHER SON HOLY GHOST Are Three Administrations Of The One God/One Lord.Jesus Christ is God Incarnate not Another “Person”. I Timothy 3 16 Fully Explains This. I also told you to read; I Corinthians 12 Verse 13 And Ephesians 4 Verse 4. Ephesians 4 Verse 5 is another “Oneness” Verse; “ONE Lord (Jesus) ONE Faith (In Jesus) ONE Baptism (In Jesus’ Name).Since you are always advising me to study or read Verses Perhaps here are Two you need to Read s well; Galatians 4 Verse 4 “BUt when the fulness of THE TIME Had come God Sent Forth His Son MADE OF A WOMAN Made under The law”. Dave since You And TRinity Folks Believe Jesus Was already in Existance In Genesis 1 26 Perhaps you can explain to us AS well as in Romans 1 Verse 3 If Jesus Pre Existed Why does the Scripture Plainly tell us “When The Fullness Of The Time Had come”???? in Other words Dave When God Decided Ro form Jesus in The Womb of Mary to become Our Perfect Sacrifice for our Sins.I also told you in Genesis 1 Verse 26 “Let us Make Man in OUR Image” God was looking down the tunnel of time When he would create Jesus he wasen’t Created when God spoke those words and furthermore Romans 4 Verse 17 Plainly tells Us God Councils with Himself. God already Knew before Creation what Was GOing to happen……Paul stated this and Paul and all The other Original Apostles were Holy Ghost Filled Tongue Talking Apostolic Holy Rollers Just Like Me…Paul Said; “If OUR GOSPEL Be Hid It is Hid to them That Are Lost” (1 Corinthians 4 VErse 3) One last thing Paul wrote of interest is found in 11 Thessalonians 3 Verse 6 “Now we command you Brethren in the Name Of Our Lord Jesus Christ That Ye Withdraw from every Brother that walketh Disorderly And not After The Teaching of US”…..Praise The Lord!!
Comment by Rick
Dave;
Do you want to Move on? or are we going to keep this going for another 250 Posts? I say go study the Scriptures Yourself instead of you “Advising” me on how Dumb I must be without using those Words. Show me One Verse in the New Testament Where “Trinity” Or “THREE PERSONS In ONE GOD” Is Stated?? The Only Verse That Talks About “THREE” Is In 1 John 5 Verses 7 ANd 8. The Father and The WOrd Are ONe and THe Same (Jesus) The Father And The Holy Ghost Are ONE SPIRIT As I Told You In Post #99.So Tell Us They Are “3 Persons”? Dave oh Dave God is not the Author of Confusion…
Comment by Dave
Rick,
Another 250 posts? I can go a thousand if that’s what it would take to get you to see that you are misguided in your beliefs.
First off, I would ask you to go back and read my post #12 and comment on it. You did after all, ask me to write it.
Second, I’ll agree, God is not the author of confusion. There are many. One of those authors of confusion is churches and their members who cherry-pick through the scriptures to find and use the ones that agree with THEIR beliefs and completely ignore all the others.
I’ll sit patiently, waiting on your response.
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Dave
And Rick,
While you are examining the scriptures I listed in #12, here are a few questions for you to chew on.
If Jesus is the Father, why is it that Jesus is explicitly referred to as “the Son” over 200 times in the New Testament and never once is he called “Father”?
If the Son did not eternally exist with the Father as a distinct person, why is it that the “Son” can say, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was?”
How did the Son have glory with the Father before time if the Son did not exist before Bethlehem?
If the Son did not eternally exist with the Father as a distinct person why is it that the “Son” is said to be “sent” from the Father “out of Heaven”?
Nowhere in the New Testament is it said that Jesus sent the Son. If Jesus were the Father, as Oneness believers contend, one would expect to find a clear example of this.
If Oneness doctrine is the so-called doctrine of the apostles, then, why was it universally condemned as heretical by the early church Fathers (some of who were disciples of the original apostles).
John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb, yet I have found no scriptural evidence that he ever spoke in tongues. Was he saved or not?
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Anonymous
What happened? Just a little bit ago the last post on this topic was mine #102, now it’s #103.
Comment by Anonymous
Never mind, I figured it out. Well, I didn’t figure it out, but I know what happened. Carry on! Pretend I never said a thing!
God Bless, Dave
Comment by Rick
Dave;
Let’S First address Post #103 Then we will Address # 12. #103; You asked If Jesus is The Father….I Have stated many times Dave The FATHER And The SON Both have The Same Name. Actually All Blood Fathers And Sons Have The Same Name Don’t They? If Your Last Name Is “Smith” We Then Know Your Real Daddy IS Also Named SMITH Correct? In 1 John 2 Verse 1 We are told The Name of The FATHER is JEsus. In Isaiah 9 Verse 6 Does It Not Say That “The Child Born Son Given Is THE EVERLASTING FATHER??? GoRead It I Did’nt Write It. This Plainly tells you that The Child Born Is Also The Everlasting Father Does It Not? ONE ONE ONE!!! Does it not tells us in 1 Timothy 3 16 God (The Father/The Spirit Was Manifested in The Flesh?? Does That Make Another “Person” NO! Still ONE ONE ONE. Let’s Now Read John 5 43; Does It Not Say The FATHER Has The same name as The Son??!!! Does John 14 26 Tells us THE HOLY GHOST Will Come In JESUS’ NAME?? So Dave I Just Proved The FATHER SON And HOLY GHOST ALL (ALL) Have The Same Name! I also have told you numerous times the only Difference Between Jesus The Son And Jesus The Father is The Spirit SIDE Controlled The Foeshly Body But THEY ARE THE Same!!! ONE ONE ONE. Back In Isaiah We Read Where God Says He Is The Only Savior. In Acts 4 Verse 12 It Tells Us Jesus Is The Only Name WherebyWe Must BE Saved. IF The Father And Son Were Different “Persons” Then One Lied Dave Because The Bible TellsUs BOTH Are The Savior. ONE ONE ONE…..
Comment by Rick
(Post #103 Con’T) When Jesus made the Statement regarding “Glorify Thou Me With the Glory thou had with me Before the World Was” Dave let’s Read Isaiah 42 Verse 8; “I am The Lord that is my Name and MY GLORY WILL I NOT SHARE WITH ANOTHER”. If As You Propose The SON Is The Second Person in a TRINITY then what God declared in That verse could not be True since He said he would not Share His Glory with Any Other and Then Jesus tells us HE Had ZThe Glory with The Father Before The World Was…again There is Only ONE ONE ONE!!…Next The SON is The FLESH Of The One LORD/ONE GOD..The FATHER Is ALSO The ONE GOD/ONE LORD ANd The controlling Spirit Within JESUS His “SoN” (AKA; The Fleshly BoDy Of An InviSabLe God…NEXT..You asked Why then If Oneness Was Taught By The Original Apostles How Come “Others” Whom The Apostles TAUGHT Never Taught This Later On…Very Simple If You Read In Various Epistles Paul And Others Tell Of Those Who Once Walked With Them…LEFT THEM!! Alexander The Coppersmith Is One Off The Top Of My Head. I Can Look Up All The Verses Where People Walked Away From Original Teachings…Next; Jesus THE FATHER And JESUS The SON Are One And The Same LORD/GOD The Only Difference Is THE SPIRIT IS GREATER The THE FLESH….Did Not Jesus Tell us in John (I Beleive) “THE FATHER (Spirit) IS GREATER THEN I” (THE FLESH)….Did not Jesus confirm that again When He said “The Spirit (The Father) Truly is Willing But THE FLESH Is WEAK”…..That’s Why Jesus (The Son) Taught us To Pray To The “FATHER” because all of Us Are WEAK And We Need HIM….I’LL Take A Break Then Answer Post#12….Blessings..
Comment by Rick
…Post #12…Dave; I asked you to tell me HOW MANY Were On The Throne In ReveLation 20 Verse 11? You Stated; “One But That Does not Mean The “Other TWO” eWeren’t There. If according to the TRINITY The “Three Persons” Are Co-Equal Then Two of them are Powerless since only ONE is Sitting on The Throne….ONE ONE ONE!!! Were the Other “TWO” Out Visiting? On Vacation? Eating A Meal? Sorry Amigo…ONLY ONE!! Every verse you posted shows One LORD ONE GOD…Not Three Persons.Jesus IS The Name of The Father Son Holy Ghost ONE LORD/ONE GOD.Acts 2 Verse 38 The New Converts Were Baptized In THE NAME OF JESUS…Acts 19 Verses 1 To 7 PAUL Re-Baptized The Disciples Of John The Baptist In THE NAME OF JESUS…Acts 10 CORNELIUS Was Baptized In JESUS’ NAME…Etc..Etc. Can Anyone Show me Just One Verse Where any Convert Was Ever Baptized in “Father Son Holy Ghost”??? The Apostles knew Who Jesus is That’s why they Baptized in Jesus’ Name…..I Rest My Case…Lord Bless You!
Comment by ceseeley
The Bible says to walk in the Spirit:
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
As Christians, we should let the Holy Spirit guide us every moment of every day. One of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to interpret scripture the way God intended. It is not what we think, but what the Holy Spirit guides us to think; then God gets the glory.
Please, read Ro. 12: 1-2, letting the Holy Spirit guide you.
Have a wonderful day in the Lord!
Craig
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Comment by Michael
Can any of us truly be saved from God? can we be saved from the church? Some have escaped the filthy Christian didease.