Have you changed your mind?

90 Comments »

1. Comment by Debbie

   I have really been much more open this past year. I no longer believe that certain spiritual gifts have ceased, yet. I believe the demons are separate creatures than fallen angels. I now believe that the “Feasts of the Lord” are significant to the Christian church. When I cannot prove a viewpoint beyond a shadow of a doubt, I no longer dismiss it, but present all viewpoints, although I have my own preference. All in all, I think I have been becoming more toward what Paul talks about in ROM 14. It has been revealed to me that insisting on my own viewpoint often is perceived as self-righteous and does nothing to edify God. I do not accept false doctrine, but when things that are “seen through a glass darkly” then I must concede that each person must “see” as revealed to them through the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Having good study mates who disagree and challenge my mind, soul and spirit goes a long ways toward stretching and making spiritual growth occur. It is so true, “when iron sharpens iron, sparks often fly.” That is why fellowship is so important.
   MARANATHA

2. Comment by Rachel

   I haven’t come to a doctrine yet that I’ve “changed my mind on”, but I know my Dad made a complete 180 on the Doctrine of Election. He thought it was absolutely false, but now believes in Election and Predestination after being led into a study of it by the Holy Spirit.

   I totally agree with Debbie in regards to iron sharpens iron! I have learned when there are secondary issues that are not directly addressed in God’s Word, that it’s best to leave it on the shelf until God brings information to you that addresses it. For me, an issue that I’m not certain of is the Young Earth and Old Earth issue. I’m not going to argue the point with anyone, but I love to read from both sides. I know God will give me a conviction of the issue if and when He wants to.

   Debbie, I’m interested in your belief of demons not being fallen angels. I admit that I’m not an expert in the subject, but doesn’t the Bible say that when 1/3 of the angels fell, they became demons of Satan? I wasn’t even aware that there was other beliefs out there in regards to this? I caught a small listen of John MacArthur’s newest study on the radio and I know the other day he was talking about angels, cherubim and Lucifer before/during/after his fall. I wander if MacArthur mentioned anything in regards to this subject? I’ll have to download and listen to the whole series.

   Maranatha!

3. Comment by curtis newman

   When we quit learning we die. When we think we know it all is when we find ourselves in much trouble. Study to show ourselves approved is a Major issue for me. Listen to everyone, but go to the Source for everything, and we must be open, if not do we have the right to ask others to change their mind,etc, Muslims, or anyone else we might disagree with, what if they have the same mindset.

4. Comment by Douglas Summers

   Hi,
   Doctrine is made more sure if one knows the Full Gospel. I have commented on the full gospel many times but I never get any fellowship with a member that knows the full Gospel.

   Only God the Holy Spirit can teach us…men are liars.(1 John 2:26-27)

   Here are some false doctrine’s of men: A saved person by the blood of Christ can lose his salvation; Jesus was a good man…not God; It takes Christ plus works to be saved; You must be baptised to be saved; The Church is the New Israel; The redeemed Church goes through the Tribulation. All these are false and doctrines of men. There are many more also.

   In Christ
   Doug

5. Comment by Child of the King

   Rachel

   I’d be interested to know why your Dad beleives in Pre-Destination? The Church is Pre-Destined not the individuals in The Body of Christ. I’ve seen this issue addressed many times down through the years.

   If Individuals are pre-destined why even have Repentance or Water Baptism?

   To be sure Jesus being God knows the End from the beginning knows his children and who will stay in Spiritual Love with him..and who will quit down the road. Anyway if you have a free moment I’d like to hear your Dad’s view on “Pre-Destination”. LOL

   Douglas;

   Would be curious to know why you are led to believe that #1 Baptism and #2 Why you claim a person who is blood bought can never lose their salvation? All the rest you posted I totally agree with. Perhaps you can share with us why the two items I mentioned are False as you stated? If I’ve missed something let me know Brother To Brother…LOL

6. Comment by Rachel

   Hi COTK,

   I can not speak for my Dad. He’s over 2400 miles away and I only get a chance to talk once a week via phone. He’s never on the computer either because it’s not his thing As far as Pre-Destination, there are many verses in the Bible that talk about us being chosen, elect, predestined, etc. Here’s but just a few:

   Ephesians 1:4 According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

   Ephesians 1:5 (ESV)
   5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

   God planned people to be adopted as sons.

   Ephesians 1:11 (ESV)
   11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

   God planned people to receive an inheritance.

   Romans 9:11 (ESV)

   though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

   John 17:24

   Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

   Revelation 13:8

   and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

   And there are SO many more. I do believe in Pre-Destination according to what I’ve learned thus far. I don’t believe those that don’t believe it aren’t Saved. There’s a lot of “points of divergence” among regenerate believers. What’s the most important is the Gospel of Salvation! That is one point we can not and must not disagree about as Christians!

   John MacArthur did a really great series on the Doctrine of Election (Doctrines of Grace)! If you have a chance, you might check it out

   Here’s the link: http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive

   Just scroll down until you see Doctrines of Grace.

   Maranatha!

7. Comment by Debbie

   Hi Rachael,
   Here is a link to GQ. It explains an alternate view about demons that I agree with, even if the writer of this article does not. http://www.gotquestions.org/fallen-angels.html It explains the difference about demons and the fallen angels in JUDE 1:6. Notice how we always say “Satan and his demons.” Why not “Satan and the fallen angels?” I believe there are fallen angels AND demons working in the spiritual warfare.

   Doug,
   I cannot find the word “full gospel” in the NIV or KJV. What are you making reference to?
   MARANATHA

8. Comment by Child of the King

   Rachel

   First I Thank you for your reply and the scriptures you posted etc. Shows you read the Word and seek Truth Excellent!

   As I mentioned in a prior post THE CHURCH is Pre-Destined. Secondly Yes as I also mentioned God knows every soul who he calls out and those will grow in him and yes who will be in heaven one day with him. However he also knows who will back-Slide and never return and who will back-slide and return as well. See Rachel if we are were all “Pre-Destined” that means everybody in every Christian Religion..Faith…Denomination…And even Cults will be saved follow where I’m going?

   The Church which consists of individuals is pre-destined.

   Let’s look at in this manner; How would we as individuals know who for sure among us is “Pre-Destined”? Because then you have to wonder if the person next to you in Church or you or The lady across the Aisle is pre-destined and if they are not they might as well become the greatest sinners because they’d be wasting their time under a “Pre-Destined” system.

   Jesus told his Apostles to teach “Repentance and Remission” (Luke 24 v 47) certainly he would have not told them to teach that if everyone is Pre-Destined.

   Anyway just a friendly discussion between two fervent Christians. Lord Bless for your Faith in Jesus…

9. Comment by Anonymous

   Child of the King I am very impressed with your comments. Keep them coming.

10. Comment by Debbie

    Election is a subject which I have changed my mind about as well. Although I believe those God FORKNEW, He foreordained…that kind of put a different spin on it for me. He would violate His character if His gift were not offered to all, however, He knows who will and who won’t. It is obvious to any of us that those who won’t just don’t get it.

    However, I totally disagree with the comment, “backslide” and not return. Are you saying that somebody can sin themselves out of God’s justifying work? Salvation is a three part process. Postional, experiential and ultimate. Our position is Christ is not up to us and our glorification is not up to us. Our experience is up to us but does not negate the position and glorification. If that is true than you must define the line at which one is good enough or bad enough to lose their free gift. The work of the Holy Spirit is three part; regeneration, indwelling and sealing. Where does the Scripture say that a church age believer loses the baptism or sealing of the Holy Spirit?
    MARANATHA

11. Comment by Bruce

    Hey Doug ,you seem to forget deuteronomy 29 :29 we are never to comprehend the full gospel, the secret things belong to the triune –and give praise to the trinity.
    Being raised catholic ,and totally confused by the actions of that church ,the discernment and wisdom that God bestowed upon me led me to a southern Baptist church when I and my wife moved from up north to Sunny fl.,where I accepted christ along with my wife.in 1975. still something was missing. too many rules and regulations not even remotely found in scripture were seemingly being shoved down my throat. see ya. I became a wanderer in a strange land that was also very Scary .
    here it is folks, read scripture every day as soon as you awake ,and pray that Gods holy spirit will guide your every thought and deed and smile————–

    I came across this precious little one liner of a prayer and will leave it as it is .and pray for more reach out ministry ,this site is Good! but we have got to take it to the streets,and the world. I always veer from the topic but with due cause.peace,trust,faith be with you
    ” LORD TEACH ME TO RECOGNIZE YOU IN ME ”
    (David Wilkerson)—World wide challenge

12. Comment by theodas

    My my, what a posting! I can’t pass up an opportunity to make a few comments on what I’ve read. Please take everything I say in the spirit of gentleness as I intend it to be.

    First, Douglas, are we twins from different mothers? You properly referenced several FALSE doctrines and I think some may have misunderstood if you were stating your beliefs or truly false doctrines. By my reading of the Book, you are right on target.

    I like that I see differences of opinion regarding angels verses demons, the possibility of the “loss of salvation” and even the use of Doug’s term “full gospel”.

    As one who answers questions on this site, I have seen and given answers to questions similar to these points. I wish I had time to sit with each of you and with open Bibles in hand go through the Scripture verse by verse on any of these topics, as I love to spread the Word and share the Gospel with anyone who will hear.

    Finally, for Child of the King, I take from your comment to Doug that you believe a person can “lose their salvation”. If I am correct in this reading, would you please let me know? Here’s why, most Bible believing people typically are separated by an imaginary gap which is this, one group says Christians CAN lose their salvation, while on the other side of the gap equally bible believing Christians say you CANNOT lose your salvation. Who is right?

    Am I close? Would you fall into one of these camp? Would anyone reading this post?
    If so, what would you say if I told you that I discovered at least FIVE positions regarding salvation, as to whether it can or can not be “lost”?
    I have Bible for everything I say. If you are curious, feel free to contact me at theodas@mail.com. I have a book you might be interested in. The book is not for sale. I offer it as a gift to anyone who requests one. I only ask for shipping costs which have typically run about $4.00 depending on how far away you live.

    I do not seek praise or monetary gain, only that God be Glorified and believers be edified. For a brief view and sample reading of the book, please visit http://www.yourbook.com/BookInfo/IP24593-07.asp.
    An enjoyable preface to reading the book would be to watch “The Princess Bride”

    I pray God bless you all.
    Until He comes,
    theodas

13. Comment by Bruce

    devotions@davidwilkerson.org
    I advise all to hook up to one of the most worthyy causes and out reaches in the world ..Truly spirit Led since the 50’s. and never once asking for money, he is head pastor of time square church,and preaches along with Carter Conlin in the world wide ministry. he is truly Gods tool..

14. Comment by ceseeley

    As a teenager, I use to believe that a denomination(i.e. not Catholic) was the only true one and I went to their college and everything; found out later that they were amillennialist and will not change their minds about it and also that there are good Christian people everywhere.

15. Comment by Douglas Summers

    Hi Debbie, Comment #7.

    The Full Gospel is perached by Paul. Reference: (Acts 20:17-27).(Romans 1:1-9). Actually, All of Romans is the Full Gospel.

    Acts17:22-34; Acts 15:13-18; Phillip preached the Full Gospel. (Acts 8:12). Acts 13:17-40; Christ preached the Gospel. Matt.4:23;
    Matthew Chapter 13; Matthew Chapter 24. Read and study the Scriptures….tell me what you see?

    In Christ
    Doug

16. Comment by amillenialist?

    “Teaching
    Amillennialism teaches that the Kingdom of God will not be physically established on earth throughout the “millennium”, but rather

    that Jesus is presently reigning from heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father,
    that Jesus also is and will remain with the church until the end of the world, as he promised at the Ascension,
    that at Pentecost, the millennium began, as is shown by Peter using the prophecies of Joel, about the coming of the kingdom, to explain what was happening,
    and that, therefore the church and its spread of the good news is Christ’s kingdom.
    Amillennialists cite scripture references to the kingdom not being a physical realm: Matthew 12:28, where Jesus cites his driving out of demons as evidence that the kingdom of God had come upon them; Luke 17:20-21, where Jesus warns that the coming of the kingdom of God can not be observed, and that it is among them; and Romans 14:17, where Paul speaks of the kingdom of God being in terms of the Christians’ actions.

    In particular, they regard the thousand year period as a figurative expression of Christ’s reign being perfectly completed, as the “thousand hills” referred to in Psalm 50:10, the hills on which God owns the cattle, are all hills, and the “thousand generations” in 1 Chronicles 16:15, the generations for which God will be faithful, refer to all generations. (Some postmillennialists and nearly all premillennialists hold that the word millennium should be taken to refer to a literal thousand-year period.)

    Amillennialism also teaches that the binding of Satan described in Revelation has already occurred; he has been prevented from “deceiving the nations” by preventing the spread of the gospel. This is the only binding he will suffer in history: the forces of Satan will not be gradually pushed back by the Kingdom of God as history progresses but will remain just as active as always up until the second coming of Christ, and therefore good and evil will remain mixed in strength throughout history and even in the church, according to the amillennial understanding of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares.

    Amillennialism is sometimes associated with Idealism as both teach a symbolic interpretation of many of the prophecies of the Bible and especially the Book of Revelation. However, many amillennialists do believe in the literal fulfillment of Biblical prophecies; they simply disagree with Millennialists about how or when these prophecies will be fulfilled.”

17. Comment by Very nicely stated

    comment 16!

18. Comment by Margaret Miller

    Hi Ya all, this has really intrigued me, I just am frozen at the moment, what scripture verse should it be, inny minny minny mo? I’ll get back as soon as I know, LOL! But in the meantime I couldn’t agreee wtih youuuu all any moreeee!

19. Comment by Margaret Miller

    I just read my above comment and I want to make sure that you all know I do like this site and I do like the comments here, I am not sure my comment came out the way I intended, sorry I am a preschool teacher, I got carried away. ;D

20. Comment by Margaret Miller

    I just went over all the comments again and sadly I don’t understand half of what has been sad, but you all intrigue me. Could someone suggest a format for me to follow. By the way I never have been to church, just on the holidays and I want to know all that the rest of you know. Is there a book I could buy to help explain what you are all discussing?

21. Comment by Debbie

    Greetings Margaret,
    Just pick up a Bible and read it every day and in a year’s time, you will have gone through the whole thing. Every year you read it, it will become clearer and clearer. Begin to study with a pastor that does expository teaching including original languages, history, grammar and a whole world of the divine mind and knowledge will open itself up to you. May God bless you in your endeavors.
    MARANATHA

22. Comment by Margaret Miller

    Where do I buy a bible and is there are certain name of a bible that I should look for? Thank you Debbie, you are very nice.

23. Comment by Rachel

    That’s Debbie for the link! I never even realized this train of thought existed, but I can see how it does! I’m not prepared to make a decision on what I believe to be true, but that’s the great thing about secondary issues…they don’t affect salvation

    COTK, thank you for your response! At this time, I’m comfortable with what I know about predestination and election, but I will always try to keep an open mind because one never knows when God will lead you to understand something totally different, just like the question on this blog implies

    I really appreciate the fellowship here on the blog and while I may not agree with everyone on every subject and may not agree with the answers given on GQ, I do believe this is a very important and vital aspect of fellowship! The iron sharpening iron!

    Margaret…I’m not sure what book to suggest as there are many great books available, but none better then the Bible itself I’ve just recently acquired an ESV Study Bible and find it so amazing for reading and understanding scripture! There are a lot of radio teachers that are really good too! John MacArthur is one of my favorites and all his sermons can be downloaded for free! http://www.gty.org You can find a sermon for just about anything you want to know

    God bless, everyone!

    Maranatha!

24. Comment by Rachel

    Ooops…meant *thanks* Debbie

    Oh, and Margaret, the ESV has a One Year Bible:

    http://www.crossway.org/catalog/bibles#one-year-bible

25. Comment by Debbie

    Doug,
    I am not sure that I get it? The term “full” is not making sense. The “good news” (euangelion) is that mankind no longer has to suffer the wrath of God for sin. I am redeemed, expiated, propitiated, in Christ through His blood sacrifice. I am regenerated, indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto resurrection. I have been born-again with at least one spiritual gift which is to be used per EPH 2:10. For me that is full (pleroo)!!!

    Good exposition of amillennielism. Funny how the Bible is literally interpreted and then WHAM, all of a sudden it is symbolic? Go figure?
    MARANATHA

26. Comment by Debbie

    Margaret,
    Rachael is pretty right on. You would probably enjoy a study Bible. The footnotes concerning history and archeology are very much a part of accepting God’s truth. At least, that is what drew me to Christianity and produced a conversion. You can go online and order one or find a Christian bookstore. I believe you would enjoy the English Standard Version or ESV for a first read. I personally, rarely read anything but the Bible. People sell books to try and present their point of view, but reading the actual Word and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict you is the best way. Be blessed….

27. Comment by Margaret Miller

    Thank you for all your help everyone, now I have a good idea of what to do:)

28. Comment by Douglas Summers

    Hi Debbie,
    I do not question any of the things you wrote about yourself in Comment #25. I love you dearly in the Lord.

    In Acts 20:20-27, Paul says (20)…. “I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you”… The full Gospel is all of the Gospel. (21)”He preached to both Jews and Gentiles”….”repntance towards God, AND Faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ”.

    The full name of the second person of the Trinity is “Lord Jesus Christ”. The first is His divine name; the second is His human name; the third is His offical title. He was ALWAYS Lord (Kurios). (Heb.1:10)

    In His incarnation as a babe in Bethlehem He became “Jesus”.(Matt.1:21; 2:1). As son of David He was born to Messianic rights.(Matt.1:1; Luke 2:11). At His anointing with the Holy Spirit (Luke 3.21-22) He entered into His full ministry as the “Christ” or “Messiah”. (Acts 10:38).

    Lord – is the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. All the OT names of God are merged in the name “Lord Jesus Christ”. The Hebrew Elohim, Jehovah, Adoni all all rendered Lord in the Greek NT. These primary names of God in the OT are are all rendered Lord in the Greek NT as Kurios and Kurios translated Lord is the divine name of Jesus in the NT.

    All the conversation and work in the OT of God and man is Christ before His incarnation……Did you know that? I will give you more later.

    In Christ
    Doug

29. Comment by ceseeley

    Margaret Miller and All;

    Another suggestion is the King James Version Study Bible in large Print because according to some theologians there are hundreds if not thousands of deletions from the KJV Bible in the new Bible versions.

    Another possibility is http://www.blueletterbible.org where you can compare many versions of the bible, go to the original Greek, Hebrew, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance interpretations … etc. You can follow one word throughout the entire Bible or the same for similar Scriptures. This website is free and has commentary, dictionary and many more helps.

30. Comment by ceseeley

    amillenialist and All;

    amillenialist, I haven’t seen the Lamb laying down with the Lion in all my life, could you explain why that isn’t happening now?

31. Comment by Debbie

    Doug,
    I am very familiar with the typology of the Old Testament and the anti-typology of the New Testament. I am still not getting the “full” part. I understand repentance toward God and Faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. Actually, they are one and the same. A person would not be able to have faith without first changing their mind toward God. The conjunction “and” creates a continuation of the fisrt word in the second. As for the title Kurios Iesous Christos, I am very familiar with that exposition. Call me dense, but I cannot see the difference between “full” gospel and gospel. I don’t get it.

    Ceseeley,
    I think amillennielist is describing what it means, not that he/she believes it per se. He/she did a good job of describing what that belief is, not necessarily that they agree with it. Unfortunately, something like 60% of the Christian churches are amillenniel. I have not seen the Mount of Olives split in two with a river running south to north either, but they symbolize everything away. God didn’t really mean that, right?
    MARANATHA

32. Comment by Douglas Summers

    Continued…from Comment #28.

    Hi Debbie,
    Go back to Acts 20:20-27. Have you studied the Scriptures?…Paul says he has kept back nothing that was profitable to you. Look at verses 24 and 25. Paul preached “The Gospel of the Grace of God”….and “the Kingdom of God”. verse (27), He declared ALL the counsel of God! Acts 8:3, Philip preached the things, “concerning the kingdom of God” …and “the name of Jesus Christ”.

    Matt.4:23. Christ went about preaching the “Gospel of the Kingdom of God”. There is a difference in the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that Christ preached then that , that was given to Paul.

    What is it?….I will continue later.

    In Christ
    Doug

33. Comment by Mr. Tommy

    To Doug;

    Let me first say that I understand what you mean when you refer to the “FULL GOSPEL”. But here is the Apostles’ creed; the English translation, which maintains the traditional division into twelve articles. From the Nelson’s Elecronic Bible Reference Library.

    1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth
    2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
    3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the
    Virgin Mary.
    4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, waws crucified, died. and was
    buried.
    5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
    6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the
    Father.
    7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
    8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    9. the holy Church, the communion of saints,
    10. the forgiveness of sins,
    11. the resurrection of the body,
    12. and the life eternal.
    Amen.

34. Comment by Mr. Tommy

    To Child of the King: Concerning election and predesination.

    This is from Ephesians, Lesson 7, Eph. 1.4: I’m sorry for the length.

    GOD CHOSE ———— WE HAD NO CHOICE.

    Maybe this will explain it better:

    Sally was a bright young lady. In the 4th grade at school, going on 20, she was sure to finish at the top of her class again this year. Her friends were very supportive, as was her family, when she began to dance and sing in the school drama class. No doubt about it she was going to make it big, someday. And at home she was beginning to make strides at helping her mother with the cooking and housework and she had been Daddy’s best fishing partner for as long as she could remember. Even Danny, her first grader, knot-headed brother, and Miss. Prissy, aka Monica, who was only 2 grades behind her in school had to admit that she was the life of the family.

    That Tuesday, when Sally got home from school, she seemed different. She didn’t run in and out to meet her friends somewhere, She ran by her mother and upstairs and closed the door. Her mother was sure she had heard the lock on the door click behind her. She followed her to her room and tried to get her to open the door, for she could hear her crying her heart out. “What’s wrong?” her mother asked. She was not ready for the response: “Just get out of my life and leave me alone. I never want to see any of you again.” Sally screamed.

    Her mother met Jim at the door when he got home from work. Tears filled her eyes as she tried to fill him in on what had happened. Well, He got the same response from Sally that his wife had gotten. “Just go away and leave me alone. You don’t love me and you don’t want me.” But after a few minutes of pleading and persuading her that they did love her, she finally let them in. “Now, young lady, what is all of this about? Why do you feel that we don’t love you?” She composed herself, somewhat, and then she blurted out; “Because, I’m adopted. And all this time you let me think……” Her words turned to tears and sobs. Jim pulled the young girl to him. Stella, his wife, could only shrug her shoulders when he looked for her answers.

    Jim said: ”Do you remember the cold night when Danny was born?” “Yes, sir” Sally managed to answer. And do you remember the morning your mother brought Monica home from the hospital?” She nodded. “Well. that was two miracles which God worked in our lives. First of all, we praise him for giving us two fine kids. But the biggest miracle in all of my life and your mother’s life was when we found you. You see, there was a time when we didn’t think we would ever be able to have kids at all. We tried and tried but nothing ever happened so we went to a doctor for advice. After examining your mother, he told us there was no hope.

    We prayed and felt led to try an adoption agency. Now, let me say that we are very glad to have Danny and Monica but we didn’t really have a choice. We had to take them home with us if they were pretty, ugly, good, or bad. They were ours, no matter what. But when we walked into that nursery that morning we found exactly what we were looking for…. We found you. You see, we chose you because we wanted you and we loved you, Just like we love you now, eleven years later.” Needless to say, God chose you because he wanted you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Eph. 1.4 …..before him in love.

    We are not speaking of human, emotional love here. What God wants from his children, even adopted children, is that AGAPE LOVE which changes the disposition of the heart. Emotional love is self serving — agape love meets the needs of others. Read — ( John 15.13 ).

    PREDESTINATION

    Feared by many, This is one of the most wonderful words we have in scripture. We must understand PREDESTINATION before we can understand the cross. God’s plan was predestined and foreordained and foreknown before the foundation of the earth or world was ever established.

    ( The EARTH always refers to the physical planet on which we live while the WORLD always refers to the people of the earth. ( read 2 Peter 3.5-7 ). We understand from this passage of scripture that God had established a preadamite race, a social system before he created an Adamite race, and they were all destroyed between Gen 1.1 and Gen. 1.2.) To learn more about this race click on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kushlabethanybaptist/messages/139
    and search for preadamite race. This is item #139 that I wrote on June 9, 06.

    —— Read — Ezek. 28. 11-17, Isa.14.12-14, Jer. 4.23-26 ——

    God predestined to create a new Human social system beginning with Adam. Well, Adam sinned and so did all of his descendents but by the foreknowledge of God, he sent his only begotten Son into the WORLD that the world might be saved because he loved us. He did not love the earth, not as it was and is today, because, as we learned in 2 Peter, he has reserved the earth for destruction by fire. But, don’t despair, there is going to be a perfect human race that will live eternally upon this earth as a sinless social system. This will happen after the millennium — 1000 year reign upon earth without Satan’s presence.

    God made a new covenant with all of the Adamic — present — race. He said — IF YOU WILL – I WILL. God’s plan was foreknown and predestined but each individual has the responsibility to decide conformity to God’s plan of redemption because he made every human a free will agent.

    I am so glad that —– According to the good pleasure of his will,

    HE WANTED ME !!!!!!!

    God bless.
    Mr.Tommy

    The man who is well prayed is well prepared.

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kushlabethanybaptist/messages
    #476 of 654
    Msg List

35. Comment by LayPreacher

    I used to believe that as long as you’d accepted Jesus as your Savior, you were saved. It did not matter what kind of church you attended or what else you added as a prerequisite for salvation (i.e. baptismal regeneration). Faith in those other things was okay, as long as you’d placed your faith in Christ.

    Now I realize that is wrong. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Not only is it unnecessary to add any other prerequisite to salvation (or even sanctification), it is sinful to do so. About anyone who would seek to, Paul says, “Let [them] be accursed” (Gal. 1:8-9). Modern-day translation…”Let them go to hell!”

    I did not say it. Paul did. Belief in salvation by any means other than or added to faith in Christ is heretical. Any who teach it are condemned.

36. Comment by LayPreacher

    TO MARGARET:

    May I recommend the ESV (English Standard Version) Study Bible to you? For starters, the ESV is a recent translation, making use of the most reliable manuscripts available to date. In addition, it’s wording is contemporary and easy to read, while maintaining the integrity of the Word of God. And then, as far as Study Bibles go, the notes and helps in the ESV Study Bible are outstanding.

    I would recommend the ESV Study Bible to anyone. And this is coming from a guy who was at first reluctant to get one because, “I already have enough Study Bibles. I don’t need another one.”

37. Comment by Douglas Summers

    Debbie and All…..Continued.

    When Christ came preaching the Gospel, or Good News of the Kingdom, He was preaching the OT promise of the Messiah to Israel….not to the Gentiles. Even the Church and the Gospel of God was to the Jew first The early Church was the bodiment of Jew alone. Paul and the Apostles never preached The Grace of God in Jesus Christ to the Gentile till after they preached to the Jew first. Why is this not taught…it is part of the Gospel of God.

    All of these things I mention, that are Scriptual are part of the Full Gospel and are a picture of the purpose and will of God.

    Without all of the pieces, you can not see the whole picture, and these things were given to the early Church in the begining. Now, everyone is running around in circles going over the same things, when we all should be able to teach. (Heb.5:11-6:1-3).

    To be continued. BTW, what is the purpose of the Church, and “when” and “why” was it formed?

    In Christ
    Doug

38. Comment by Child of the King

    To All

    I was out of pocket yesterday. Many addressed my comments and haven’t had a chance to address any of those comments as yet.

    From what I read seems there is some division or differences in understanding scripture all in Christian Love. Nothing wrong with that this is how we learn from The Bible and how we perceive what a given situation really means.

    The Bible is not all “Literal” in meaning. It is full of metaphors, Types and Shadows, and Double Meanings. By fervent study and cross-checking other scriptures we discover what is truly meant by thus or thus.

    Example; Jesus told the Jewish Religious Leaders “Destroy this temple and in Three days I will raise it up”. (John 2 v 19). To the carnal non Spiritual mind this sounds like a foolish statement (v 20) then v 21 explains it.

    Another statement Jesus made to them: “Before Abraham was IAM” (John 8 v 58). “I Am” denotes what God said in Isaiah 52 v 6. He also told Moses “Tell them I AM THAT I AM….” (Exodus 3 v 14) So here we have God in The Old Testament using “I AM” as one of his I’d’s. Jehovah was another name was referred unto. Those however were not his Name. Zechariah 14 v 9 “And THE LORD shall be king over all the earth; in THAT DAY (Future tense) Shall there be ONE LORD and his name ONE”.

    When Saul (Paul) was struck blind on the road to Demascus Paul asked “Who art thou LORD”? Jesus stated “I AM Jesus whom thou persecutest” (Acts 9 v 5). There it is Jesus is the Name of The One Lord/One God. Not “Father” Not “Jehovah” Not “El Shaddi” It is JESUS.

    Jesus even stated “I am come in my Father’s name and you receive me not….” (John 5 v 43).

    See how it all becomes clear?
    God’s name is JESUS and The Son has the same exact name like all true Fathers and Sons also have in Humanity. It’s not “Daddy” and “Junior” and “Junior’s” name is “Jesus” and “Daddy” is just “The Father”.

    If everyone will read and re-read this revealed truth from The Lord; You can then understand how things can be mis-understood or mis-beleived. Anyway I’m back so Fire away folks I love discussion on this or any Bible subject. LOL

39. Comment by Debbie

    Lay Preacher,
    I agree with comment #35. Mr. Tommy, tell me what the “FULL GOSPEL” is since you know what it is. I am not getting it. I understand the difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven (although I really doubt there is much difference since our God is triune) What is the “full gospel?” How is it different from the “gospel?” I have read the Scriptures Doug and cannot see what you are talking about.

    The purpose of the church is revealed in EPH 4:12-13; “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”

    It was formed on the day of Pentacost (Jewish Shavuot) when the Holy Spirit became an indwelling presence in the believers, something that had never happened prior to this point and which we enjoy today.

    Why it was formed is the same reason for its purpose. It has an order and leadership within which is to accomplish EPH 4:12-13. 1TIM 3 and TITUS 1 describes the leadership and 1TIM 4:13 describes what the pastor-teacher’s job is. “Till I come, give attendance to reading (Scripture privately and publicly), to exhortation (preaching), to doctrine (teaching).”
    MARANATHA

40. Comment by sharon

    WOW what comments on this. The bible is the bible, and one either believes it all or not. Its all true. But people have different interpertations of the word. People say, well that is what YOUR bible says, That comment really gets me, I usually ask, What does yours say, something different? I oftened wonder why people think that because there are different translations of the bible that they say different things. Its all the same no matter what translation one has, it just the persons interpertation of it, that changes. In another words what THEY believe is being said.

41. Comment by Douglas Summers

    Hi Debbie and All.

    Eph.4:12-13 is not the purpose of the Church, but the gifts of ministery to the Church….His body. The reason for the Church was Christ calling out a people of His own.(Acts 15:14-18). This was offered to the Jew first. It is called the “adoption”(Romans 9:4-5).

    Adoption in Scripture does not pertain to adopting someone outside the family and makeing them an adopted child, But it has to do with position….not relationship. It is taking one that is already a child, and making them an adult son (mature and responsible heir). This is speaking of the Church. It was calling out a people of His own and saving them apart from the Law by pure love and Grace. The Law was only a tutor until He that came would fulfill the types and eternal sacrifice.(Galations explains this in length…study it please. especially chapters 3&4.(The Church is to be a people of Christ own calling and election, as priest and kings to co-rule with Christ, heirs to the throne…a royal priesthood. One in Christ and the Father)…God said this…not me.

    Christ is not King of the Church…nor are we children of the King…But we are Sons of God and Christ is our brother. Why can no one see this. It is right there in Scripture. Christ is Head of ther Church and we are His body in unison with His will.

    The priest and rulers of Israel were to usher in Christ as He came unto His own,(not the nation Israel), but the rulers and priest of Israel, but they received Him not. They knew who He was, but they desirerd the praises of men rather than God.

    The mystery of the Church was that Christ called the Gentiles into the Church and made out of two…one new man. The other thing that God did was give the Church His wisdom and knowledge of what He was doing.(Ephesians chapters 2 & 3). Please prayfully study them.

    This is enough for now.

    In Christ
    Doug

42. Comment by Debbie

    Sorry Doug, I disagree and you contradict yourself. First you say EPH 4:12-13 is not the purpose of the church and then you say, ” It is taking one that is already a child, and making them an adult son (mature and responsible heir). This is speaking of the Church.” That is exactly what EPH 4:12 is saying. “For the perfecting of the saints;” The word “perfecting” (katartismos) means equipping or maturing. You have stated the purpose of the Church, but not how that is accomplished. I get that we are not Jews, although I have been observing the “Feasts of the Lord” this fall and am going to do so next spring as well. I realize Jesus is a brother to me and will be a King to Israel, but we will also reign in the millenniel world with the King so Child of the King is not a big deal. I realize we will be princes and princesses in the millenniel kingdom. We like to call ourselves a “Messianic Gentiles,” as a joke, but it is just a name. Why don’t you just tell me what the “full gospel” is? Why all the cloak and dagger? Is it a secret? You keep telling me things that I already know and I am not getting it. Just come to the point because I am lost. Is anybody else here getting it? Tell me if you do!!
    MARANATHA

43. Comment by Douglas Summers

    TO all,
    OK Debbie.
    I hope someday soon you will understand. I can see I’m of no help here.

    In Christ
    Doug

44. Comment by Child of the King

    Doug;

    What did you mean “we are not children of The King”?

    Doug Is’nt the Lord The King of Kings (Among other titles)??

    So that makes me A child of The King which is my Posting name. I never heard anyone ever say “We are nor Children of The King”? What Denomination or affilation are you with? Curious!

45. Comment by Mimi

    I just got home and haven’t read the comments, but Douglas Summers you are a great HELP here! You are the person that’s comments caught my eye and led my 1st to GQ. I thought this is a Chrtistian man and I need that kind of INFLUENCE in my life. Thought a confession was in order. You make a great difference here! You help so many people and you seek God 1st for your wisdom & choice of words. You have had a positive impact on so many, including me!! Don’t believe otherwise. I swear satan is working overtime. I am having a real battle myself. God has revealed a lot to me and I have personal choices to make and need to be away from things. But I come here to see what all of you are up to. I just don’t have the insights to comment right now. But I can’t ignore your comment, you are too valuable here and don’t you EVER FORGET IT. God Bless YOu!!!!!:) Your Sister In the Lord, Mimi

46. Comment by Debbie

    Doug,
    That is a cop out! You asked us if we knew what the “full gospel” is. I have not been able to get a straight out answer. Just define the term. You cannot ask a question and then just leave people hanging. What is the “full gospel?”
    MARANATHA

47. Comment by Grandpa EC

    I was content to occupy a seat on the sidelines and listen to you nice people discuss these matters; sometimes agreeing with the things I heard, and sometimes disagreeing.

    Until I saw the comment by someone, “God’s name is Jesus.”

    If that is true, then my whole way of thinking, believing and worshipping has got to be overhauled!

    I suppose the most often repeated sentence in the New Testament is, “Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    To that verse can be added many dozens more by Jesus himself and the apostles that cannot, by any legitimate stretch of grammar, allow me to believe that Jesus and God the Father were the same divine Being.

    Yes, there is (as John 10:30 indicates)a certain “one”-ness in their natures, characters, and purposes–as there is, also, in all true children of God, for Jesus prayed in John 17:20-23 that we should all be one as He and the Father are one. But you, my fellow-Christians, and I are not a single human person, nor are Jesus and the Father a single divine Person. Our one-ness is not same-ness, nor is theirs.

    I am convinced by Scripture that Jesus was not his own Son; he did not send himself here to earth; he did not pray to himself while he was here; and he did not go back to heaven and sit at his own right hand.

    “May our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God–even our Father who has loved us and has given us eternal consolation and good hope through grace–comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good work and word.” II Thessalonians 2:16-17

48. Comment by Mimi

    Grandpa EC,
    You are so correct. It was Jesus’s love for the Father that brought him here, to be a living example. To die for us, so that we could also know the Father.

49. Comment by Debbie

    Is that what the “full gospel” is? Oneness Pentacostalism? If so, I cannot accept that. The baptism of Jesus in MATT, MARK and LUKE would refute that doctrine. The very term “Elohim” is a PLURAL Hebrew word, which is why etymology is an important part of Bible study. Who was the “us” (Elohim) in GEN 1:26 “and GOD said, let US…” Grandpa EC, do you know what the term “full gospel” means?

50. Comment by Child of the King

    Granpa EC

    Read this verse if you will;

    I Timothy 3 v 16 (KJV) “And without controversy (No doubt or discussion says Paul) great is the MYSTERY of Godliness GOD (The Father/The One eternal Spirit) was manifest in the Flesh (The Sonship) Justified in The Spirit seen of Angels preached unto the gentiles beleived on in the world received up into glory”

    Question; Where are “Two Persons” in that verse?

    Revelation 20 v 11 “And I saw a great white throne and HIM that on it…..”

    Question: If there are two others where are the other two thrones for them to sit on?

    Luke 1 v 35 “And the angel (Gabriel) answered and said unto her THE HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee and the power of THE HIGHEST shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called THE SON OF GOD (Not God The Son).

    So since The Holy Ghost Impregnated Mary (Person #3) How could The Father (Person #1) Be The Father of Jesus (Person#2). Can you or anyone explain this?

51. Comment by Mimi

    Douglas and All,
    “Christ is not King of the Church…nor are we children of the King…But we are Sons of God and Christ is our brother. Why can no one see this. It is right there in Scripture. Christ is Head of ther Church and we are His body in unison with His will.”

    I have heard you say this before Douglas this exact same thing. Something in my spirit tells me you see things that I and others do not and that it takes that ‘a ha, I get it!’ moment for it to sink in. I of course don’t have the bible scripture to back up what I have said, because as all of you know I ask more questions then I get answers when I read the Bible, haha. But my Spirit feels and uproaring, no anger or frustration, nothing like that, I just feel that Douglas understands something that we do not. Let’s pray and see what the Holy Spirit has to say.

52. Comment by ceseeley

    Debbie and All;

    Debbie, in your Comment #31, if you mean the literal interpretation of Biblical Prophecy when I think you are saying God didn’t mean that the Mount of Olives Splitting should be taken symbolically, but should be taken literally, then you are so right! The symbolic card is an excuse for not believing and being obedient to Scripture the way the Holy Spirit guides us to be!

53. Comment by Mimi

    I will say something because I still am feeling led to speak…I was in a well known woman’s Bible Study (BSF) a few years ago. I always appreciated what I learned and I felt that what I learned helped me know the Lord and His teachings and even then I had more question then answers, especially with the OT. But sometimes I would feel things in my Spirit and when I spoke in my small group, people seemed to listen and repect my insights. Only one time in the 4 years of BSF did my Spirit feel a stirring and inside I felt it screaming ‘that isn’t right!’ So I spoke against the teaching to my leader and group, I even explained it as I just said. But I also mentioned I felt like we were Angel bashing. It was about angels and they said something like they are lower than us and we are never to worship them, but we have command over the angels etc. Well I got the we are never to worship them part, I know it is the trinity..The Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit, that we are to worship, period end of story. However the rest of the things being said about angels that day made me want to jump out of my seat,that is how strong my Spirit was stirred. I even blurted out that I felt that we were Angle bashing. Which didn’t go over real well, but praise God my leader knew me well and knew I wasn’t purposely looking to cause trouble. After our group decussion we went into a large Hall for Lecture and I always looked forward to what a Head Speaker had to say. S needless to say, I was anxious to have everything explained and to have my spirit at rest about the ‘topic of angels’. To my suprise her talk to us made my Spirit stirr even more. I almost felt moved to tears. I hurried to my car at the end of lecture, I felt I needed to get out of there at that moment. Amazing what happened NEXT.

    I got into my car, turned on my radio and there on my Catholic Staion was a Priest talking about the EXACT same scripture. What were the odds of that?? And since I booted out of to my car, instead of usually lingering out the door talking with others like I normally do,…I was able to be in my car at the very beginning of this Preists talk, and heard the whole thing.(PS.I also listened to a non-demonination station, so either sation could have been on.)

    You see the Preist said something very different. He talked about the angel as a demon/satan’s helper, something along that line. That we have authority over those angels/satan’s helpers, or demons and we are to rebuke them by the Blood Of Jesus….He said a great deal more, but the thing I learned that day is that when my Spirit speaks to me I listen.

    It is Not only the Bible we read, but it is through discernment, that we find our answers. I really often wonder WHY the Bible is so complicated, WHY do you almost need a DEGREE to understand it? I rely on the Holy Spirit and I have also had confirmation more than one time. Please know I would never go against God’s teachings. I know the Bible is HIS LOVE letter to us. I know it is real…I just still wonder why so much division and why it can be so hard to follow the Bible’s teachings?
    I just think that as Christians we have much more in common than otherswise thought. Pro life, Turn the other Cheek, Forgiveness, Views on Sins etc.
    Okay I have spoken, but it is out of the sincerity of my heart and I know that I am not sincerely wrong, haha. God Bless US ALL!

54. Comment by ceseeley

    All;

    Without reading every Comment completely, is the “Oneness Doctrine” being slipped in to this discussion when we talk about “Full Gospel?”
    Being exposed to the “Oneness Doctrine” was perplexing and depressing until the Holy Spirit straightened me out about it!

55. Comment by Debbie

    Hi Ceseeley,
    That is what I meant. I have friends that are amillenniel and I always ask them when that has happened, or as you said, “how many lambs have you seen laying down with lions?” We are are still friends. These things do not cause us to divide, but as I said before, when iron sharpens iron, the sparks often fly! That is what I see happening now. Nobody has to change their viewpoint, but we will all never understand some things this side of heaven and must remain friends. I would ask comment #50, “so you are saying that since Jesus is the Holy Spirt (as well as Father) He impregnated Mary and created Himself?” Personally, I believe the doctrine of the trinity is an essential doctrine. Scripture clearly reveals this. Mimi, what you are describing in comment #51 is called gnosticism. Doug does not have some special revelation from reading Scripture any more than you or I. I personally love him in the Lord becasue he is my brother (more than my natural brother) I would just like him to TELL me the answer to the question he posed. The theology of saving faith is better than anything I have ever had reach my ears. It is a plan beyond comprehension and I smile every time I think about it. So when Doug asked about a “full gospel” I was curious. I am not trying to hurt his feelings or anything bad, I just don’t understand what he is trying to say and don’t understand why he can’t just say it.

56. Comment by Joanne

    One area I changed or rather modified my belief is in instantaneous miraculous healing and the concept. The beginning of this yea, after my husband rededicated his life to Christ, he began having chest pains. This concerned us very much because he has had a life threatening heart condition since birth. After receiving healing prayer, we went to have him check out at our cardiologist and the test showed that my husband NO LONGER had this heart condition. The doctor compared it to the previous years’ findings and declared it a miracle because those findings showed the heart condition was there and very real.
    On the other hand, I have seen people who have health conditions that the Lord has not healed or the healing is in a slow process. By weighing all these situations, I found that I believe the Lord uses these miracles in ways that first glorifies Him, reveals Himself to that person to strengthen their faith and in other situations, He uses it to develop the person’s character for His Plan and Will for their life.
    We do not know everything about God nor fully understand His Ways but it is truly amazing to sees each bit unfold!

57. Comment by Grandpa EC

    My friend and fellow-blogger Child of the King,

    Please, please, PLEASE–throughout our discussion–keep in mind that the DEITY of Christ is not an issue on which you and I disagree; it’s the SINGULARITY of Christ; that is, you (I think; and please correct me if I’m mistaken) are insisting that Christ, and He alone, is divine, and that He is the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. I’m insisting that Jesus is NOT the only divine Being in the universe; that He was “with” the Father “in the beginning” (John 1:1-2) and is, since his ascension, again with the Father (John 17:5); that He received the Holy Spirit from the Father (Acts 2:33), which He then “shed forth” (KJ) on the 120 disciples on the day of Pentecost.

    You have given me three verses regarding which you’ve requested a reply, and I am happy to reply to them:

    #1. I Timothy 3:16 (KJ). I’m assuming that you specifically noted “KJ” because it is one of the very few translations that have the word “God” in that verse; most versions omit it because–as the margin of one explains–”The word ‘God’ rests on no sufficient ancient evidence.” You ask, “Where are the ‘two persons’ in that verse?”
    My answer, “There aren’t two; only one, the Lord Jesus “who”–as the verse says–”was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, etc….”

    #2. Rev. 20:11. You ask, “If there are two others, where are the other two thrones for them to sit on?”
    My answer: It is the Father on the throne in Rev. 20, as it is also the Father on the throne in Rev. 4. Please notice that the “Lamb”–which certainly must represent Jesus–comes, in chapter 5, and takes the scroll from the hand of the One on the throne. Do you actually believe that the Lamb takes the scroll out of His own hand?

    About needing more than one throne, Scriptures never speaks of the Holy Spirit on a throne. About a throne for Christ, He says in Revelation 3:21, “Whoever overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on my throne, even as I overcame and am set down with my Father on his throne.”

    #3. Luke 1:35. You ask, “Since Person #3 impregnated Mary, how could Person #1 be the Father of Person #2?”

    My answer: I have become fully convinced by many statements made by Jesus and his apostles (and if you insist, I will cite references) that they considered God the Father as the ultimate Source of all physical and spiritual blessings, even the miracles which Jesus himself performed. For example, Peter declares in Acts 2:22, “Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs WHICH GOD DID BY HIM

58. Comment by Grandpa EC

    Sorry about that; the mouse got away.

    –WHICH GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as you yourselves also know.”
    And in Acts 10:38 Peter says, “GOD ANOINTED JESUS OF NAZARETH WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND POWER who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil BECAUSE GOD WAS WITH HIM.”

    In other words, although Jesus himself was the immediate agent going about performing miracles, the Father was the ultimate Source of the power (and the Spirit the intermediate Source) by which those miracles were wrought.

    And although, in Luke 1:35, the Holy Spirit was the immediate agent in the conception of Jesus in Mary’s womb, the Spirit had come from the Father, and was the Spirit of the Father. “Therefore, also, that holy thing which shall be borne of thee shall be called ‘the Son of God.’”

59. Comment by Child of the King

    Joanne;
    Good Points. We discuss in Church why God heals some people and not others every so often.

    (1) Sin is the cause of many ailments

    (2) The Lord also said in the OT he would punish up to 4 Generations for sins. Example; John Doe lives in 1800 and commits something God detests so God not only Punishes John Doe but up to 4 Generations later John Doe’s Kin Folk get punished. (Read;Exodus 20 v 5-6) in those verses he’s speaking about Idolaters; However it’s very clear from those verses if someone goes beyond God’s “Keeping Line” (Whatever he deems the keeping line) then that person and up to the third and forth generation is subject to God’s Wrath as well.

    Finally Joanne here is what Jesus told his Apostles;

    John 9 v 1-3 “And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him saying, Master who did sin, this man or his parents. That he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned NOR his parents; but that the works of God should be made manifest in him”.

    Then from verses 6-15 we read where Jesus healed him and the rest.

60. Comment by Child of the King

    Granpa EC

    First; Thank you for your reply and yes you provided some great scriptures to counteract what I posted. I believe we basically believe on The Father The Son The Holy Ghost. The question is; Are there really “Three Persons” or rather “Three Manifestaions” of The Lord/One God?

    The latter is the correct interpretation. Let us read this; Colossians 2 v 9 “For in HIM (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead BODILY.”
    So reading that how can anyone say The Father (person #1) or The Holy Ghost (person #3) are “Persons”? The Father and The Holy Ghost are The same ONE SPIRIT according to John 4 v 24/ ICorinthians 12 v 13/Ephesians 4 v 4.

    At any rate let’s leave it at that for now and maybe later this subject will be discussed later. I’m new here and want to share the word not nit pick Doctrine. We’ll stay on subject. And Thank you for your knowledge of The Word on this and other subjects..LOL

61. Comment by Brady

    I used to believe in Unlimited Atonement because of passages that seemed to support it but once i really studied it more and especially read what u guys had to say about Limited Atonement, i realized that Limited Atonement is truly what Scripture teaches.

62. Comment by Child of the King

    Brady;

    What is “Unlimited Atonement”? Is that the same as “Once Saved/Always Saved”? LOL

63. Comment by Grandpa EC

    Child of the King,
    I really do believe you are what your name implies, and therefore I don’t want to be anything but respectful toward you (which, of course, love should cause me to be toward everyone).

    Colossians 2:9 must not be isolated from other Colossians and Ephesians “fulness” verses. An example, in Ephesians 3:19 Paul speaks of Christians being “filled with all the fulness of God.” Should we assume by that statement that Christians, then, become all that there is of God?–as, it seems to me, you are assuming Jesus has become all there is of God when Colossians 2:9 says, “In Him dwells all the fulness of Deity bodily.”

    Also, when Ephesians 1:23 speaks of the church as “the fulness of Him who fills all in all,” are we to believe that the church is all there is of God?

    Having said all that, perhaps I need to go on record as acknowledging that none of the inspired writers employed the word, “Persons,” when speaking of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; (nor, for that matter, did they use the word, “Manifestations”).

    But if we must choose between “Persons” and “Manifestations,” I will find it much easier explaining —

    – these statements of Jesus: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken Me?” and “Father into your hands I commit my spirit.”

    – and such statements by Paul as, “To us there is one God,the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist,” and “There is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

    — by the word, “Persons” than by the word, “Manifestations.”

64. Comment by Child of the King

    Granpa EC

    I can answer every question you posted and can fully explain the rest. The question is this; Is this going to cause a division or make anyone change their views on here? I doubt it very truly. So if it’s going to cause division hard feelings and all the rest it’s not worth it to me to cause strife or something worse to prove a point.

    The things I post are revelations from Fod and years and years of studying God’s Word. As I stated let’s let it go for now since this blog wants us to stay on subject and I’m a Newbie here etc.

65. Comment by Debbie

    Sorry, but when Scripture refers to the Father, Son and Spirit, the masculine, personal pronoun “He” is used indicating a PERSON. When the word “manifestation” is used, it is a feminine noun and cannot represent the triune God unless God is a FEMALE. It is important to look at the etymology and heurmenutics when reading Scripture. God is THREE PERSONS.
    MARANATHA

66. Comment by Mimi

    Grandpa EC,
    You have so much WISDOM! Love YOU!
    Love, Mimi

67. Comment by ceseeley

    Debbie and/or All;

    Debbie, do you use the Greek Hebrew Interlinear Bible and if so why, which one … etc.? Debbie, what do you think of the Amplified Bible?

68. Comment by Mr. Tommy

    Thanks, Grandpa EC.

    It has been a while since my stomach has knotted up like it is right now. We are sitting here with a hurricane knocking at our door and I am so glad that you said the things I wanted to say — only better.

69. Comment by Debbie

    Greetings Ceseeley,
    I use an Amplified Bible for my daily read and Bible Studies, but we always study with a computer. I prefer a website called greekstudy.org when I have online access since it breaks the words down as to nouns, verbs and tenses, voice and mood, adverbs, etc. It is interlinear and you can compare any English version you want with it. E-sword is a free downloadable program which will allow you to download almost any version you can think of including the septuagint and includes a thayer lexicon. Blue Letter Bible is OK, but it is a transliteration and not an actual translation. After 4 years of online study with a pastor, I have become familar with reading the greek just by familiarity. Believe me, I am not highly educated and don’t know the greek alphabet. I cannot write or spell in greek, but it has brought a depth of study and joy to my life because I know the Bible was not written in English and Greek and Hebrew are very specific and accurate languages and were chosen by God for a reason to reveal His Word. The Amplified is not always as accurate as KJV. The NIV is translated from the Codex Alexandrius while KJV is translated from the Textus Receptus. All translations have errors, but looking at the original languages is the correct way to learn. Just knowing the verb tense, voice and mood made a world of difference in understanding Scripture. I translate and teach women word by word. It is the most accurate way to study I think. Be blessed Ceseeley…
    MARANATHA

70. Comment by Debbie

    Ceseeley,
    One more thing. If you have ever studied a foreign language you have probably encountered masculine, feminine or nueter nouns. That is why I say God is a man and He is a person. If the Holy Spirit had wanted Him to be an “it” He would have guided the writer’s of the Old and New Testaments to use the neuter form for the noun “God.” The same is true in the Old Testament Hebrew word for the triune God “Elohim.” “Elohim” is a masculine PLURAL noun, not singular. If you ever diagramed sentences in grade school, studying Scripture in the Greek or Hebrew is much the same. I doubt if children even study how to diagram sentences anymore. Every “jot and tittle” was put in Scripture for a reason, so why not look at it?

71. Comment by ceseeley

    Debbie; you are so wise and great to fellowship with … PTL! Debbie why do you use the Amplified Bible? Is the Textus Receptus more accurate than the Codex Alexandrius?

72. Comment by Douglas Summers

    Hi Debbie and All,
    Not a cop out. I’m just not of any help here in the things I understand. There is a supernatuarl teaching by the Spirit….and I claim no special revelations. The things I’am talking about are Spiritual things and can not be understood with just zeal for God’s word. Zeal is good, but without Spiritual discernment…some things will not make sense.

    BTW,(katartismos) in Eph.4:12 has the meaning of “preparing fully”, not making the Saints perfect,Christ did that on the cross of all who called upon His name. But here it has to do with arming us for the work of the ministry and the edifying of the body of Christ…The Christians armor …..sort of speak. (not looking for an argument ) It is like what Peter says about Paul (2 Peter 3:10-16) I fall into that line.

    To King, Yes Christ is King, but we are not Christ children, we are His body. I can not explain this to your staisfaction, this is something God will have to show you. If we do not understand the fullness of Christ Gospel, then we can not be bold in the Spirit…just bold in the flesh.

    In Christ
    Doug

73. Comment by Mimi

    I love you too Mr. Tommy. I think I have to adopt you and Grampa EC, haha. God Bless You both! I agree with your comment, #68!!
    God Bless, Mimi

74. Comment by Mimi

    One comment to everyone, this is beginning to look a lot like Christmas.. I mean this is beginning to look a lot like family, every where I read…Trying to be silly, my God given gift. This really seems like a family here and in family’s there are various points of views as well as many differences. So Smile everyone!

75. Comment by Douglas Summers

    Hi,
    That the visible church thinks we are under the OT letter of the law given to Israel…we are not! We are not lawless, but under the Law of Christ.

    In Christ
    Doug

76. Comment by Child of the King

    Debbie;

    Quick comment. First I appreciate the Family Dialog we have here. Like all families we may not always agree with others. That Does’nt necceessarily mean The person stating things We personally don’t agree with is right or wrong. The Right is always what saith the Word Of God. If Someone cannot back up their beleifs by scriptures then yes they are probably wrong or don’t have a total revelation of what is true and false.

    One Of The 9 Manifestations of the Holy Spirit is; “The Spirit of Wisdom” (ICorinthians v 7-10) so what one may think is “wrong” maybe in fact be “Right” according to God’s Word.

    That Said let me in Brotherly Love say this; I stated Father Son Holy Ghost are Not 3 “Persons” rather 3 Manifestations. You explained Since God is a “He” he automatically is a “person” etc.

    A Person to me has three distinct personalities such as You and I or Myself and Granpa EC Etc Etc. God Manifested Himself in 3 various Manifestations of himself not 3 distinct Personalities. Using “He” sounds better then “It” doesn’t it? That is what I was referring to.

    Finally in the KJV when The Angel Gabriel Appeared to Mary. Read what he said; (Luke 1 v 35) “…..and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee; Therefore THAT HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son Of God”

    Notice; Not Mary’s son but “That Holy Thing”. Why? Because she was the Mother of the Flesh not (As Catholics are taught) “Mother of God”.

    Mary was a chosen vessel to bear The manifested Flesh of God. Anyway LOL!

77. Comment by Debbie

    Ceseeley,
    The Amplified Bible was a gift from my best friend, so I treasure that. It makes an attempt to do what Greek would be like in English, but it really does not come close. For example, the phrase, “it is written” might translate; at a point in eternity past and continuing into eternity future (perfect tense) God, the Holy Spirit wrote (passive voice) the concept or embodiment of an idea behind the written word and it is a statement of fact (indicative mood) You see it would be impossible to write a true English translation for such a short phrase. The codex’s are copies of original manuscripts. When the church at Rome split, the Byzantine church used the textus receptus (this is the one KJV is translated from) while the Roman church used Codex sinaiaticus, alexandrius, etc. The sinaiaticus and alexandrius are older manuscripts and the textus receptus has more Scripture. Ultimately, I trust that the Holy Spirit gave the guidance to those who selected the 66 Books at Nicea in 325 AD. The main thing that I tell everybody is to pick one up and read it every day. Immerse in it, taste it, feel it and learn wisdom and knowledge. For me, translation is glorifying God by honoring PSALM 138:2. Examining every jot and tittle…

    Doug,
    The very fact that we have an indwelling Holy Spirit IS supernatural. Think about it, would we have a zeal for God’s Word and application in our lives without the indwelling and filling of the Holy Spirit? If you understand things and cannot teach them, then you don’t have a teaching gift, so why do you dangle the “full gospel” like a carrot and then say, “I can’t explain it.” If you are Paul in 2PET 3:10-16 and we are distorting “things that are hard to understand including Scripture” then you must at least state clearly, as Paul did in his teaching, what that is. Spiritual discernment is one of the gifts of the Spirit and is not possessed by EVERYBODY. “To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.” (1COR 12:8-11) That is why we fellowship. God will place those gifts in a body for the edification of that body. If you are trying to say that ALL must speak in tongues and perform miraculous healings (including raising people from the dead) as the Apostles did in order to comprehend the fulness of Christ, I do not accept that. If you are saying there is no triune Godhead and we cannot partake of the “full gospel” unless we believe that, then I do not accept that either. All I can say is that you either can’t explain in words what the “full gospel” is or you are scared to say it, but God does not speak in mysteries and guile. How many times did Paul say “I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers,” (actually 4 times) So please say it. It is not a difficult question, “what is the difference between the “gospel” and the “full gospel?”
    MARANATHA

78. Comment by Douglas Summers

    Debbie, The full Gospel is the whole will and purpose of God as revealed in His word. One who knows the full Gospel….all that God is doing, contends for the Faith.

    While we do not want to argue over words, to think it is not that important for someone who calls themselve a Christian to have different beliefs without counseling them to the full intention and Doctrine of Christ, allows to much room for self willed worship and many heretic teachings.

    If one does not know a doctrine is one thing, but to pass it off as OK because you don’t understand something is unprofitable.

    We need to be sure of all of the counsel of God. What say you.

    In Christ
    Doug

79. Comment by Child of the King

    Douglas:

    Brother you said “We are not Christ’s Children….

    Then Why Did Jesus say to The Apostles after he went to the Cross and Re-appeared unto them the following “CHILDREN do you have any meat”?

    And Why did John say in 1John 2 v 1 “My Little CHILDREN….” He wasen’t talking to kids bro! God sees us as “His Children” and he’s Our Father Our provider…Our Healer…Our Way-Maker just like a Real Father would be who Loves his Children…LOL;

80. Comment by Debbie

    Doug,
    I guess I believe the “full gospel” then. I “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2TIM 2:15) I labor for the gospel and live with God in charge of my life. I have no more anxiety or care for this fleeting physical realm. My prayer life, though not “without ceasing” is intercessory and I always ask that I might not misrepresent God’s Word to others. It has cost me relationship with my blood family and I am put down quite often by Christians because I am not “doing” but just studying God’s Word. The transformation in my life from unbeliever, to carnal Christian to maturity is evident to me and those who have known me long enough to see the difference, but I am becoming weary these days of trying to contend for solid doctrine and what is seen as arguing over doctrines that I see as unsubstantiated and contrived from pulling Scriptures from here and there and building whole doctrines and religious movements on such things. My life is of no value to me and if God would see fit to use it in order to bring just one soul to the knowledge and relationship with Christ, I would gladly welcome that. As always, you are my brother in Christ and I relish the day I will meet all of you true believers in heaven.
    MARANATHA

81. Comment by Douglas Summers

    Debbie,
    Without question, I love you in the Lord. We know we have reached Spiritual rebirth when we are no longer at home in this age and have peace in leaving it to be in the presence of the Lord. While many in this age have shunned you because of Christ, They have also shunned Christ too.

    While we are distraught at what awaits those who reject and are disobedient to the Lord. We also have in our heart for them that tehy could know the peace of God in Jesus Christ.

    God will give you opportunity to see what the full gospel does as He leads me in it.

    In Christ
    Doug

82. Comment by ceseeley

    Debbie, Douglas Summers and All;

    I looked up “Full Gospel” on Wikipedia and it says that it is part of Pentecostalism with emphasize of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the speaking of tongues as evidence:

    Pentecostalism is a renewal movement within Christianity that places special emphasis on a direct personal experience of God through the baptism in the Holy Spirit[1] which is evidenced by speaking in tongues. The term Pentecostal is derived from Pentecost, a Greek term describing the Jewish Feast of Weeks. For Christians, this event commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the followers of Jesus Christ, as described in the Book of Acts, Chapter 2,[2] and Pentecostals tend to see their movement as reflecting the same kind of spiritual power, worship styles and teachings that were found in the early church. For this reason, some Pentecostals also use the term Apostolic and/or full gospel to describe their movement.

    The problem with this may be based on the following:

    According to the New Testament, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is an experience sent by Jesus Christ. As recorded in the Gospel of Luke, Jesus describes it as “the promise of the Father”, through which believers in Christ receive “power from on high.”[1] According to the Book of Acts, Jesus further referred to the baptism with the Holy Spirit as an experience through which his disciples would “receive power, after that the Holy Ghost [was] come upon [them].”[2] “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”[3] “The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus”.

    The last sentence is the most important:

    “The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus”.

    Jesus was just describing what it was going to be like when they got the Holy Spirit which now we all receive after we are “Born Again and Josh McDowell says that we receive all of it so there is no need to be Baptized in the Holy Spirit which is evidenced by “Speaking in Tongues” and anyway, everyone isn’t given that gift. In other words, a whole doctrine and movement has developed over something that happened for one time “in that way” to certain people and Christ was just describing it to those particular people and it was never intended to grow into the term “Full Gospel!”

83. Comment by Child of the King

    Ceseeley;

    Let me address the post before this if I may.

    Everything you state is omn the Word of “Josh McDowell” as if this man is some sort of “Guru” on all things Spiritual.

    You know down through the years I have seen this scenario repeated so many times. People read this view or this view and take it all on as “Gospel” God wants us to get our mind and attention on simply his
    Word (John 5 v 39/Acts 17 v 2) Even in the OT this was the case (Joshua 1 v 8-9) Also read Acts 17 v 11) The reson Our Nation has so many different “Christian” Viewpoints is because Lazy Christians tend to want to Listen to some smooth-talking seemingly Nice Man rather then READ AND READ And STUDY.

    How do you think Jim and Tammy Bakker And Jimmy Swaggart and others Fleece so many? Gullible Christians My Fellow servant.

    Regarding your Staements on The Spirit of God and who gets it Etc; The Apostles were all Water Baptized in Jesus’ name but did not receive the Spirit of God Until Jesus ascended to Heaven and sent it back On The Day of Pentecost in The Upper Room (Acts 2 v 1-4) That was the First Day Of The only True New Testament Church that Jesus ever founded.

    That Church still operates this very day. That Church Beleives and practices what was taught by Jesus and His annointed and appointed Apostles.

    Those Apostles Warned about False teachers and False teachings were coming to take them out of this Church (Read
    Acts 20 v 25-31. Paul here was telling the Original Church what was coming. Today we see what Paul was taking about. Hundreds of Various Churches with Unsound Original Teachings all claiming to be following Jesus…What a farce

84. Comment by Debbie

    Ceseeley,
    I believe Doug when he says that is not what he means by “full gospel.” I agree with you. Spiritual gifts are given as God chooses and not all men possess all or certain gifts.

    COTK,
    You make some pretty harsh statements. Remember, your form of theology evolved in 1913 and has been propogated courtesy of Frank Ewart a smooth-talking seemingly nice man who attracts many lazy Christians who do not study. We (Ceseeley, Doug and myself particularly) follow Jesus. Your opinion about what is a farce and what is not is stricly that, your opinion. Our opinion is that we do not follow unsound teaching. Faith alone, in Christ alone….

85. Comment by Child of the King

    Debbie;

    We Started in 1913? And who is Frank Ewert? Never heard of him.

    The Revival in America started in 1906 in San Francisco on Azusa Street. The Church was already in Existance since Pentecost about 33 AD.

    As Far as False Doctrines Debbie go read in Your Bible about The Holy Ghost About Miracles And Signs and Wonders and Baptism and what The Original Apostles Taught 0ecause we practice all of it A to Z. And those who don’t believe Part or All of it are simply Un-Beleivers Ma’am.

    In One thread you compared us To JW’s and Mormons. Does this make you feel better even though your statements are False? If you don’t want to accept Biblical Truth I Post Fine with me. If I Post somethinf Un-Biblical That’s False Just Show me what it is O.K.? You also stated I won’t ever convince you. Fine Who said I was trying to force you or anyone to accept something you don’t care to believe?

    LOL

86. Comment by Jerry Teets

    Q; Are there any doctrinal issues that you once held strongly to, but on which you later changed your mind?

    Conditional Perseverance, King James Onlyism, Holy Spirit Baptism vs. Holy Spirit Filling.

87. Comment by Debbie

    COTK,
    I never said your were an unbeliever. That is between you and God. I was raised Catholic and for me to have the knowledge of Scripture and understand grace puts me in awe daily. Why did God pick me? You do quote Scripture right out of the Bible, but unfortunately, you are very selective and ignore much more Scripture than you tenaciously cling to. That is OK with me too, but you woo and draw new Christians and those who are not well studied to water, miracles, signs and wonders and the Holy Spirit without providing the foundation of faith and grace. Therefore, they believe those things are their saving grace. I have never been blessed with the miracle working gifts. God has seen fit for me to fulfill EPH 2:10 through gifts of knowledge, teaching, exhortation and discerning spirits. Remember, those who practiced the gift of healing in the New Testament healed instantaneously and were able to raise from the dead. Since you practice this from A to Z, I assume you are able to do this. Remember Satan can imitate these things. “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” (MATT 24:24) I see alot of this these days. “The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,” (2THESS 2:9) I have absolutely no more to say. Go in peace..

88. Comment by JC

    Amen Debbie

89. Comment by Child of the King

    Debbie;

    Do you understand 0he Bible is not all Literal in meaning?

    One needs to put it all together to see if it is (1) Litertal (2) A type and Shadow (3) Double Meaning (4) A Metaphor.

    Case in Point: John 10 v 30 Jesus Said “I and My Father are One” some interpret that remark different then another person. If you know as Paul Harvey used to Say “The rest of the Story” Then it can properly explained with backup verses.

90. Comment by Debbie

    Excuse me? Now the Bible is not literal? Since it is not, then I cannot trust its contents. That is the first sign of a cult. Try to convince people that the Bible is not the literal word of God, but THEIR interpretation. JOHN 10:30 does not need back up verses. It speaks for itself. Ego kai ho pater eimi heis. I (Jesus) and (continuation of the previous noun “I”) the (definite article stating a specific father, not just any father. Specifically God the Father) father (male progenerator) are (present tense; this is contiunally true of Jesus and God the Father. Active voice; Jesus personally says this. Indicative mood; it is a statement of fact) one (the cardinal number, one) There is NO rest of the story.
    MARANATHA

RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI

Leave a comment

If you want to leave a feedback to this post or to some other user´s comment, simply fill out the form below.